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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Bindair, I agree with you. I think it is about people just getting greedy. However, let's not say the expats in the ME have cornered the market on that.
My wife is at home here in Japan and I support the 4 of us. We make enough to get by and save a little. We could make much more money, but our priorities are our kids. We thank God that one of us can stay home and do just that instead of getting someone else to raise our children. For most people, they don't have that luxury. |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Bindair Dundat wrote: |
| But I do think there is something wrong with choosing to increase your material wealth at the expense of your children's upbringing, and with resulting negative consequences for society. That's what my previous post --the one you quoted-- was about. |
The sad fact of life back in the US is that both my wife and I would have to be working full-time for us to be making anywhere near the same money, or have a comparable non-luxury life-style, I currently manage on a single salary in Japan. Unfortunately living in Japan just doesn't work educationally for the kids at this point (one in college and two in high school) so we're stuck with doing the 'distance family' thing with dad working in one place to maximize income and mom and the kids residing in the US. Other options are rather limited. I could look for a position in the US and then really battle to make ends meet or be able to provide a better standard of living for my family but not be around to see them on a day to day basis.
Hard choices that most single income expats will eventually have to face. |
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Mark100
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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I might be alone here but I think that there is nothing wrong in making a lot of money and spending a lot too if you can afford it.
I think teachers are underpaid and badly treated.
It is really interesting seeing things from another job....I just got a contract in Perth WA and the money is the same as i was getting in Saudi albeit it is more expensive to live in Australia.
I got the job via a telephone interview , no references and no quals for this type of work and it pays three times what i would get as a teacher in Australia.
I do however have industry experience and that was enough.
It is business software and I prepare the training material and then train the users.
So it wasn't such a big change in direction. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark100 wrote: |
| ....I just got a contract in Perth WA and the money is the same as i was getting in Saudi albeit it is more expensive to live in Australia. |
The same salary before or after taxes? And then you have to pay for your own housing, right? I imagine that your holidays are significantly shorter in Australia too. (and no free ticket to use)
I calculated that, in the US, I would have had to be paid 3 times my Gulf salary to duplicate the pay + benefits... (obviously NOT in education) and would have had only 10 days to 2 weeks of paid holiday per year rather than 3-4 months.
I must admit that in the Gulf I felt neither underpaid, nor badly treated in relative terms. I guess I was just lucky with my employers for the most part. In my previous career in business, there were also mostly good, but a few bad employers.
Of course things are much easier in both places if one is single. And the evils of conspicuous consumption seem to be speading...
VS |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of the benefits are not quite the long-term benefits you may think they are.
If you live in the West your kids schooling is free, and probably of the same standard as that in the International schools in the Middle East.
You're at home, so you don't need the ticket back - when you take the vacation to Thailand, Mexico or Ibiza, you pay for the ticket just like you do when you take part of your Saudi holiday to fly there from your home base.
You get housing - great whilst you would still be paying for rented accommodation in your home country, but not so great when you get round to owning a house in your own country and have to pay the mortgage for the nine months you don't live there (or live like a gypsy and pay for rented accommodation for the three months you are not in Saudi).
And moving jobs is not as simple as giving in your notice, collecting your paycheck, and starting elsewhere next Monday. It can mean selling off car and furniture at low prices, being a up to a year with no fixed income, or bieng separated from your family if you have one.
And then there is no pension, state or otherwise. And paying non EU prices for universities for your children and a large etc.
So when you include the cash value of benefits as part of your pay, and then compare your net pay with what you would be getting net before tax deductions in your home country, you are comparing apples to oranges. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark100 incidentally is a PeopleSoft trainer. They don't require housing. They get escorted every night by armed guards to a special safe house to avoid being torn limb from limb by crazed users of their software. |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
If you live in the West your kids schooling is free, and probably of the same standard as that in the International schools in the Middle East.
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Free? If I were at home, I'd be paying upwards of 45% of my income in various taxes, including local school taxes. A portion of national and state income taxes also go to support the educational system, and there is a lot of invisible support for education, such as student-loan reductions for new teachers in critical-need areas.
I agree that the overall standard is about the same: same teachers, same books, same curricula. But the nice thing about Gulf schools is that I think my daughter has a smaller chance of coming home stoned, shot, or pregnant. |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark100 wrote: |
I think teachers are underpaid and badly treated.
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Yes and no. When I compare my lot with that of the cleaners and construction workers, I can't complain.
And when I consider my training in comparison with that of, say, an engineer or a doctor, I don't think I'm getting such a bad deal...
...as long as I stay away from places like Abu Dhabi University and "CERT University". 
The *best* EFL jobs are pretty good. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Free? If I were at home, I'd be paying upwards of 45% of my income in various taxes, including local school taxes. A portion of national and state income taxes also go to support the educational system, and there is a lot of invisible support for education, such as student-loan reductions for new teachers in critical-need areas. |
The point I am making is that you shouldn't be comparing after tax income in the Gulf with the same at home. If you do, then your points become irrelevant. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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The only thing you CAN compare is take-home pay... the 'after-tax' income from both locales. That is the only comparison that is relevent.
As to housing costs, this has always been provided free to me in the Gulf. Not all people own homes back in their home country, but I did. It was rented and the rent covered both the mortgage and real estate taxes - plus most of the repairs. If I moved back into it, those costs would have been mine to pay each month from my "take-home pay."
Not need the ticket? I guess you are assuming that people who live in their home countries wouldn't possibly want to travel during their vacations? But, of course if they do, they will have to pay for it... out of their "take-home pay."
In the Gulf I was able to keep all of that "take-home pay." No pension plan, of course, but I was able to invest most of that "take-home pay" which produces significantly more retirement income than I would be able to get from the paltry US pension system. (actually it is more than double)
And let's not even get into the health care issue... My health insurance premium is nearly the same amount as my monthly housing costs...
Being single, paying for the kids education cost is not my problem... though I still get to support it from the taxes that I now pay.
VS |
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Mark100
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Let me clarify my position......In Saudi I was on an all up deal which is the norm for contractors at Aramco.
My daily rate was about 1200 riyals a day which includes everything hols accommodation tickets etc
In Australia i am getting the same after tax.
The only real difference is the standard of living.....but i think i am way better off in Australia for other reasons. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:13 am Post subject: |
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Often the 'other reasons' are much more important than the money.  |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| The point I am making is that you shouldn't be comparing after tax income in the Gulf with the same at home. If you do, then your points become irrelevant. |
I compare after-everything income: What I put in the bank. The Gulf wins by a mile. |
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QatarChic
Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 445
Location: Qatar
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| I agree- I make a lot more here in the Gulf. In the UK, I have to pay income tax, NI, council tax, rent.....and that's not even including the electricity/water bills which go up each year- I am DEFINITELY better off here, at least I am able to live a comfortable lifestyle, save money, travel ..... |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I compare after-everything income: What I put in the bank. The Gulf wins by a mile |
Agreed, but bear this in mind.
You have to put part of that money towards your pension, whilst that is paid for by your deductions and your employers deductions in many UK jobs.
No unemployment insurance, so deduct a small amount for periods of unemployment.
Even if you are saving 80% of your salary you will find that your colleagues in London or San Francisco or getting more money each year just from the increase in the value of their home. Won't continue indefinitely but does take the shine off the job somewhat :)[list=]
The Gulf wins for out at present I feel, but certainly not by a mile; by a length maybe, and maybe by a few lengths in certain situations. [/list] |
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