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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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 Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:51 am Post subject: Re: taiwan for creative types |
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| mick_luna wrote: |
| Finally, what's the dating scene like for guys? |
Sorry, when I date, I look for women. Maybe this will help you? |
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mick_luna
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 115
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: ha ha |
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| i'm not sure if you trying to be funny, but perhaps i didn't phrase my question well. What is the dating scene like for heterosexual men looking for hetero women? |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:27 am Post subject: |
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Ghost wrote
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Living in Taiwan is boring, for most teachers.
It is not a country with an interesting culture, and it is difficult, if impossible, to have an interesting conversation with most Taiwanese - most of whom have a very limited view of the world.
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Are you serious? That is a pretty offensive diatribe.
As I read through this stream, I'm shocked by the opinions I'm hearing. Are you people in the same country as all the foreigners I know? All the foreigners I know in Taiwan love it here. Most people stay beyond their one year contract because they are so happy. The people are incredibly friendly, the food is good and Taiwan has a VERY interesting culture.
If you are really so unhappy here, it begs an obvious question: Why are you still here? Do you have no better options at home? All the foreigners I know are here because they WANT to be. I know teachers who were lawyers, accountants or businessman back home who are here because they want to do something productive or interesting with their lives rather than sit in an office all day.
If you don't like it in Taiwan, just go home. It's people like you that give the rest of the foreign community a bad name.
Also, to the moderaters: Why are blatantly offensive (and even prejudiced/racist) opinions like the one Ghost expressed allowed to be posted? Completely dismissing an entire country and culture seems to be the extreme OPPOSITE of the reason Dave's ESL Cafe exists. |
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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Are you serious? That is a pretty offensive diatribe.
Also, to the moderaters: Why are blatantly offensive (and even prejudiced/racist) opinions like the one Ghost expressed allowed to be posted? Completely dismissing an entire country and culture seems to be the extreme OPPOSITE of the reason Dave's ESL Cafe exists. |
Well, I find it interesting and useful to have BOTH viewpoints [and hopefully a few in between] included and I would hope that a variety of opinions will always be allowed on Dave's. Heavy-handed moderating only drives potential posters to other forums.
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As I read through this stream, I'm shocked by the opinions I'm hearing. Are you people in the same country as all the foreigners I know? All the foreigners I know in Taiwan love it here. Most people stay beyond their one year contract because they are so happy. The people are incredibly friendly, the food is good and Taiwan has a VERY interesting culture.
All the foreigners I know are here because they WANT to be. |
Anyway, it's always refreshing to hear from people who like a country and I was hoping if you have time that you could add some more specific comments to what you've already said. You mentioned the people, food, and interesting culture. Any other reasons that everybody is so happy in Taiwan?
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| If you don't like it in Taiwan, just go home. It's people like you that give the rest of the foreign community a bad name. |
There are at least a dozen or more countries where native speakers can seek employment teaching English. No need to go home if you're unhappy or bored with one single country. Just go to another country. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Are you serious? That is a pretty offensive diatribe. |
I'm not sure what Ghost wrote about lack of an interesting culture and interesting conversations with locals is an "offensive diatribe." Sounds like an opinion to me and one that many who've been here have had. Are you suggesting that, because ghost's opinion offends you, that s/he shouldn't be allowed to express it? I generally like it here, but realise not everybody does.
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| As I read through this stream, I'm shocked by the opinions I'm hearing. Are you people in the same country as all the foreigners I know? All the foreigners I know in Taiwan love it here. Most people stay beyond their one year contract because they are so happy. The people are incredibly friendly, the food is good and Taiwan has a VERY interesting culture. |
And you've expressed your opinion. Glad to hear it. Glad also that you like it here. Try to understand not everybody will agree with you. How long have you been here, btw? Your point about "incredibly friendly" people clashes with my take on the place. I speak Mandarin well enough to talk to the average person and, perhaps more importantly, listen to and understand what is said around me. People aren't always saying nice things; not everyone likes you and not everyone is friendly. Food is another matter. Some like it and I generally do. But some of the complaints about it are excessive use of oil, unsanitary handling of food and unclean eating environments. My main point in all of this is to show you that, for everything you love about Taiwan, there is a contrasting--and just as valid--viewpoint on it.
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If you are really so unhappy here, it begs an obvious question: Why are you still here? Do you have no better options at home? All the foreigners I know are here because they WANT to be. I know teachers who were lawyers, accountants or businessman back home who are here because they want to do something productive or interesting with their lives rather than sit in an office all day.
If you don't like it in Taiwan, just go home. |
That's a worn out, trite statement Sanchong. I've lived here a number of years now and like Taiwan alot. I see it's downsides and comment on them from time to time. Does that mean I have to leave now? We don't all have to love everything about Taiwan or get out. Some say love is seeing the faults of your beloved, accepting them and loving her for all her good and bad points. Pretending the object of your affection has no faults at all is not real love. That you are blind to the downsides of this place is a sure sign you're still in the honeymoon stage of your relationship with Taiwan.
| Quote: |
| Also, to the moderaters: Why are blatantly offensive (and even prejudiced/racist) opinions like the one Ghost expressed allowed to be posted? Completely dismissing an entire country and culture seems to be the extreme OPPOSITE of the reason Dave's ESL Cafe exists. |
I doubt the mods will answer you, but they've likely read this thread already and came to the same conclusion as I have: There's nothing wrong with this thread at all. Nobody is "dismissing" Taiwan. Some people like it and some don't. It's a forum, for crying out loud. If we can't express our opinions here, what's the point of this place? Most content I've seen in this thread is completely appropriate to the discussion.
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| It's people like you that give the rest of the foreign community a bad name. |
This, on the other hand, is a personal attack and just the sort of thing a mod should be looking for and editting from a forum such as this. |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Teaching in Taiwan can be crap. It can also be great. A lot of it depends on your experiences and outlook on life. I know plenty of foreigners who hate it just as I know plenty who like it. Sometimes I absolutely hate it. Especially in the traffic. Sometimes I love it. Especially when I get out of Taipei on the weekends. Other times I just need a holiday for a few weeks. It's not a bad life. Nice money for minimal work. I'd rather be here than 'back home'. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: Well |
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Ghost said:
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It is not a country with an interesting culture, and it is difficult, if impossible, to have an interesting conversation with most Taiwanese - most of whom have a very limited view of the world.
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I'm sorry, Taoyuan Steve, but I don't view that as an "opinion". This is a clear dismissal of an entire country and people. It smacks of close mindedness, prejudice and is not an "opinion" that should be tolerated. To say that most Taiwanese have a "limited view of the world" is not far off from saying a lot of other equally offensive racist generalizations.
I'm entirely fine with anyone expressing their opinions about specific events and specific people. However, dismissing an entire country as "uninteresting" is not something I feel should be tolerated.
As for my insinuation that this is the type of foreigner who gives us a bad name... I stand by my statement. I apologize if it seems like a personal attack. However, I'm tired of being judged in Taiwan by a small percentage of foreigners who constanly complain and treat the locals like 2nd class citizens in their own country. It is THEIR country. We are really treated incredibly well here in Taiwan, overall. Of course, I get frustrated with things on a regular basis as well. Just like back home. I don't think it's appropriate to dismiss an entire country and culture. I object strongly to that and would encourage anyone who feels this way to leave.
As for the philosophy of someone being allowed to express themselves with free speech, of course I support that. That being said, it's not ok to say that all "blank" skinned people are less intelligent, or that all people from "such and such" a country are lying cheaters. I think we would all agree that such "opinions" should not be allowed in this, or any forum. I think dismissing Taiwan and it's people as entirely "uninteresting" and having a "limited world view" falls under that category.
Steve, I've enjoyed reading all your opinions on this forum for quite some time. They are well balanced, fair and very helpful. We could use more people like that to express opinions. I've never been as offended as I was by Ghosts comments and it inspired me to make my first ever post here!
Maybe he was just having a particularly bad day!
Steve said:
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| How long have you been here, btw? ...... I speak Mandarin well enough to talk to the average person and, perhaps more importantly, listen to and understand what is said around me. People aren't always saying nice things; not everyone likes you and not everyone is friendly. |
I've been in Taiwan for over 2 years and speak Mandarin fairly fluently on a conversational level (my reading and writing have a long way to go!). Of course people aren't ALWAYS saying nice things! Overall, people here are among the friendliest in the world, particularly to foreigners. The vast majority of the people I know here would agree with that statement.
I agree with everything you said about Taiwan: Nothing is black and white anywhere.
Taiwan isn't all good and it's not all bad. It's like anywhere else and there are ups and downs. I object to someone saying its all completely bad, uninteresting and habitated by people with no world view. That's much worse than saying, "It's all wonderful all the time!"
Almost everyone I know in Taiwan is very happy here and I don't think this forum is an accurate reflection of what Taiwan is actually like for a foreigner.
This forum is generally frequented by overly negative, bitter people.
If newbie's visiting this forum decide not to come to Taiwan based on those extreme opinions, it would be very unfortunate.
That would truly sadden me, as it's just not the reality of things. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Sanchong, what ghost wrote is his opinion and your response to it is your opinion. When you say he dismisses a whole country, that is your opinion. Nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with what ghost wrote. I have a problem with your calls to the moderators to delete opinions that don't agree with yours. There is nothing wrong with the posts you advocate removing, other than the opinions don't reflect your own. Why do you advocate censorship of ghost's opinions? Should he/she not be allowed to write his opinions here, simply because you disagree? Taiwan is not a shangri-la. It has many faults. These faults should be able to be discussed openly without calls for censorship. There is value in reporting the bad as well as the good-- the negative opinions as well as the positive should be represented here. People can, then, have all the information and make up their own minds.
Peace. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Well |
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| SanChong wrote: |
Ghost said:
| Quote: |
It is not a country with an interesting culture, and it is difficult, if impossible, to have an interesting conversation with most Taiwanese - most of whom have a very limited view of the world.
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I'm sorry, Taoyuan Steve, but I don't view that as an "opinion". This is a clear dismissal of an entire country and people. It smacks of close mindedness, prejudice and is not an "opinion" that should be tolerated. To say that most Taiwanese have a "limited view of the world" is not far off from saying a lot of other equally offensive racist generalizations. |
What "Ghost" wrote was completely inoffensive compared to some of the things you can read on the China forums here. Ghost's statements are gross overgeneralisations but not really surprising coming from a Westerner trying to live in an Asian country. |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:57 am Post subject: I agree |
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Henry you are absolutely right that a lot worse is being said out there. That, in itself, is not a defense.
Steve, I completely and entirely respect your opinion on this. I'm not sure you really responded to my overall point though. Do you think ANYTHING is allowed to be said here? Lines must be drawn of course. Perhaps you and I draw these lines in different places. Where they are drawn is for the moderators to decide. However, my opinion is that wide sweeping generalizations which entirely dismiss a country should not be allowed.
I'm all for an open discussion of the Pros and Cons of Taiwan.
Let's be honest and frank here: Ghost's comments really came off as dismissing Taiwan as inferior to Western countries. Personally, I don't think that kind of prejudiced opinion should be allowed anymore than saying all people of a particular skin color have an inferior intelligence. Is it ok to say that openly in a forum?
Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree  |
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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:04 am Post subject: |
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Anyway, it's always refreshing to hear from people who like a country and I was hoping if you have time that you could add some more specific comments to what you've already said. You mentioned the people, food, and interesting culture.
Any other reasons that everybody is so happy in Taiwan?
What are some more POSITIVE things about living in Taiwan? |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:08 am Post subject: Sure!! |
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I just posted this yesterday in another thread here, but it can't hurt to post it here as well. Here are some of the things that I humbly enjoy here in Taiwan!
There are LOTS of interesting things to do in Taiwan:
1) The nightlife in cities like Taipei, Kaoshiung and Taichung are very good... the clubs, lounges and bars can many time be as good as Manhattan's. (there are a lot fewer of course!)
2) Learn the language!! Mandarin is a very interesting and challenging language to learn... and just learning the language will open up a LOT of new and interesting experiences for you. It's a shame how many foreigners don't try to learn the language.
3) Outdoor activities: Go hiking in Yangminshan or Alishan. Go Kayaking/ white water rafting in Hualien. Visit the National Park in Kenting. Go scuba diving there.
4) Food!! The food in Taiwan is great. There are all the same western foods as home and the variety of local food is fantastic. BBQ, Hot Pot and Hibachi are some of my local favorites.
5) Make friends with the locals! Their idea of fun can sometimes be different than ours, but it's still very interesting. Going to a tea house in the mountains with a bunch of Taiwanese friends or to restaurants you couldn't find on your own is always fun.
6) KTV! A lot of foreigners won't agree with me on this one.... but KTV (Chinese style Karaoke) is a lot of fun. Go to a KTV place with a lot of friends... drink and make a fool of yourself!
7) Get a scooter. Driving around the streets of Taiwan on a scooter is almost TOO MUCH excitement... |
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SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Steve: I thought of a good analogy to describe my feelings on what is acceptable to be said here.
Would Ghost's comments be considered acceptable to print in The New York Times, or a major European newspaper? Of course not. There would be huge protests throughout our countries by every rights group imaginable if such "opinions" were allowed in newspapers.
I don't see why we can't apply the same standards here.
Thoughts from others? |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Do you think ANYTHING is allowed to be said here? |
I never said that, did I? I'm not interested in sidetracking the discussion into one about whether or not anything is acceptable on a forum. I'm only interested in the specifics we have been discussing.
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| Lines must be drawn of course. Perhaps you and I draw these lines in different places. |
Yes. Lines need to be drawn and actions need to be taken--- in extreme cases only. A traveller gives his impressions of a country. They may be biased and over generalizing-- and you may even disagree with them (as I do in the case of ghost btw), but such is the nature of opinions. These forums exist for the expression of opinions. When we get to the point of saying people cannot say Taiwan sucks, then we ought to just close down the forums. True. It would seem you would draw the lines differently than I would. But I might add you would draw them differently than me, the site's moderators, admin and the majority of its users. I invite you to think on that a little.
Ghosts portrayal of Taiwan upset you and you disagree strongly with it. Take him to task over it  That's what these boards are all about. But let's leave the calls for censorship to overt statements of hate , personal attacks or other such things. Enjoy the forums, now that you are a contributor. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| I don't see why we can't apply the same standards here. |
Because this is the internet and not print media. These boards are a completely different genre with a completely different purpose. |
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