Job Discussion Forums

[Super Mario]

I have no problem with non-native ESL teachers. One teachers' office I was in last year had a Latvian, a French lass, a Greek, a Chinese and two "native speaking" Aussies. All had lived in English speaking countries for many years [even the Aussies] and were native-like in their fluency.
The teacher in charge was Scottish.
One of the more professional outfits going round.

[Babala]

Unless a teacher is teaching at an international school thus children of expats I think a fully qualified teacher would be someone who has a degree either in english or linguistics and a masters in TEFL/TESOL.

[Super Mario]

By this definition, very few teachers would be qualified in their native countries.

[Sextus]

Super Mario,

I know. "A plumber or a taxi driver could do as well". Therein is an indictment of the environment, and the environment, as we know, is lax. Many schools don't really care; many students don't really care; many FTs are consequently underqualified and / or untalented. In this demand-driven market, a busker can become a professor. (And that's no exaggeration: I know of at least one Head Teacher at WEB who is precisely that -- a busker. A professional busker).

But that's tu quoque, isn't it. "Who are you to call me a thief? Everyone is a thief! You are a thief!" It doesn't change the facts, and it doesn't make the facts right. The appropriate retort is "You remain a thief"; "You remain unqualified and unskilled".

I'm sure this doesn't need to be said.

[vikdk]

I believe energy is more effectively spent focusing on our own problems as teachers - of course this is related to the educational environment here, but constantly criticizing Chinese education also serves the purpose of putting up a smoke screen that covers up an apparent widespread deficiency in FT abilities.
I think a good start point in this argument is that we must consider The Chinese TESOL arena one which should be geared to giving the Chinese English student a positive experience and not one just designed to give every white faced Tom, Dick and Harry a short term overseas job.
I know in reality not too much can be done about it without effective legislation, but at least a mind set could be established from which someform of standards could be discussed. A discussion which must surely have it�s roots in the appraisal of qualification.

[millie]

Certainly a worthwhile issue.

What do people regard as minimum qualifications?

Do you think a non-native speaker with an unrelated degree would pass muster if English teachers in China were screened in such a way?


Any opinions from regular posters or long time visitors?

[Roger]

[Super Mario]

Lively and interesting debate, but could we clarify what we mean by "a TESOL"?
As I understand there are two kinds of qualifications for TESOL.
One requires money and time, as well as a modicum of English literacy, but no formal pre-requisite. Its recognised mainly in countries where English is not the native tongue.

The other is a post graduate tertiary qualification [ie, the candidate requires a minimum first degree] offered from certificate to masters level in a native English speaking country. It enables the holder to work within that country's education system as a qualified teacher.

So which one is it?

[7969]

[vikdk]

7969 I think you have just penned out minimum standard number 1

1. That a China FT should respect teaching skills - with a view to both reflecting upon and improving - rather than solely relying on being an English speaker in, or willing to travel to, China as a minimum qualification.

[7969]

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

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[Roger]

It is to be hoped that other posters would come forward telling this audience about their teaching background.

I will venture to say a few observations that pertain to other job holders I have met.

We had a fully-qualified economics teacher at our university but he didn't last long. His credentials were kosher, no doubt about that; he did feel unhappy with his students, though, because they weren't up to task (using English as the medium of teaching in his class). I could well relate to him...
His salary was 30% higher than the salary English teachers got and still get.

In his case, I am not sure if a more education-orientated background would have facilitated his job; I think CHinese students that come to "oral English" classes can be a bit of a strain for anyone. It is therefore unclear to me why FTs have to be highly qualified and certified for jobs related to conducting conversations using English.
The fact that we almost never get to teach "substantial" subjects (by which term our Chinese employers mean grammar, intensive and extensive reading) says a lot about the low esteem in which we are held.

I can contrast this with the hiring practice at some universities that teach a SECOND foreign language such as Japanese, French, Italian, German (I think, the popularity of these languages is in this order).

I knew a French "professeur de francais" (in French, a "professeur" doesn't automatically have to be a professor; it is the formal titlefor teachers at lycees too) who had a university degree in her field and who was teaching at an elite tertiary institution in CHina; she had to teach grammar, literature and she also had to practise French orally with her students.
Of course, using French as a - not the only one! - medium of her instruction exposed her students to spoken French. Sometimes she had to revert to English, though.
A second foreign language can be studied if you majored in English and your English is above average. I have often noticed that Chinese French students are highly proficient at both French and English. You can test their abilities every year when the Canton Trade Fair rolls into town.

Her remuneration was much better than the regular salary the best-paid FTs gets at most universities - it gets booested by a stipend offered by the French government.

[Super Mario]

Roger wrote

Quote:

The fact that we almost never get to teach "substantial" subjects (by which term our Chinese employers mean grammar, intensive and extensive reading) says a lot about the low esteem in which we are held.

To my regret I got to teach several of these. Huge, largely disinterested classes, textbooks full of down-home Readers Digest type pap: "tedious", as my students put it. Whereas, with smallish [under 20] oral classes real progress was discernible.

Quote:

A second foreign language can be studied if you majored in English and your English is above average. I have often noticed that Chinese French students are highly proficient at both French and English.

A French teacher told me one of the Chinese leaders [she couldn't nail which one] speaks excellent French. Any ideas?

[tofuman]

Roger,

I was often puzzled by your posts, not because we often disagreed, but because you frequently misrepresented my position and then argued against something I did not say. It is a common device used in the field of theology when one can not refute the opponent's premise. Simply misrepresent him. Then destroy the position he does not hold and announce yourself the winner.

Of course the deviousness of this approach is evident. I considered the possibility and then dismissed it that you might simply be lacking in the mental capacity to grasp the argument which I advanced.

I believe I have the answer. You are not a native English speaker and are lacking in English reading comprehension skills. You post on this board as a means of practicing your English skills. This is the best possible solution. You are neither devious or stupid, just working beyond your English language level.

I commend you. Your grasp of English, while far from perfect, is much greater than my grasp of any second language. I only wish you would have informed me of this sooner, if I am right.