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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with Clark. What justification does the OP have for leaving? They agreed to the contract and it sounds as though the school is honouring it. The OP should have done their homework BEFORE they signed a contract. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:34 am Post subject: |
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clark you make me sound such a hero - alone manning the barricades against the manipulative employer.
but read the slogan on my banner -
stamp down hard otherwise they'll always get away with it
kind of contrasts with your-
softly softly best not make them angry"
by the way clark by having a site that adverises you are a de facto recruiter - there is no question about that - and your impartiality has to called into question |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| clark you make me sound such a hero - alone manning the barricades against the manipulative employer. |
Maybe in your own mind vikdk!
| vikdk wrote: |
but read the slogan on my banner -
stamp down hard otherwise they'll always get away with it |
That is the whole problem with your posts. What exactly is it that you are 'stamping down hard' upon. In the case of EF you seem willing to stamp down on any school that has EF on it's sign with a total disregard to the fact that some of those schools are perfectly fine and reputable branches while others are not.
In the case of this thread you seem willing to 'stamp down hard' on the employer simply because it is the Chines employer and must therefore be wrong, even though the facts stated so far seem to indicate that the school is innocent of any wrong doing other than employing the wrong teacher for the job.
So in 'stamping down hard' are you willing to stamp down hard on everyone in a particular group regardless of their guilt or innocence just because they happen to be in that group.
If so then I believe that your philosophy is self-defeating.
| vikdk wrote: |
kind of contrasts with your-
softly softly best not make them angry" |
Our points of view and approach to subjects and problems certainly do contrast, and this is something that I am proud of.
Rather than rant and rave I prefer to look at the strengths and weaknesses of arguments. If a teacher has been legitimately wronged then there will be strengths in his or her case that can be argued, and in my experience anything less than this achieves no result.
Feel free to rant and rave as much as you like but don't be mistaken that your words are having any impact beyond the thread that you post in. I am proud of my track record of assisting teachers with dilemmas that they face and I have never charged one cent for it. I do it as I have experience that can sometimes be valuable.
| vikdk wrote: |
| by the way clark by having a site that adverises you are a de facto recruiter - there is no question about that - and your impartiality has to called into question |
Any continuation of this is just boring as it has already been discussed to death on this board. It is becoming your regular fall back though - if you can't argue your point of view you result to attempting to discredit the person making the posts. This does not say much about you I am afraid vikdk. I suggest that you concentrate on arguing the posts, not about the person making the posts! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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you calling me boring recruiter clark  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| you calling me boring recruiter clark |
If the shoe fits...
I didn't know that you were a recruiter though, so I don't know that I could have referred to you as a 'boring recruiter'! 
But seriously, why not take a moment to answer the questions that I have asked you about your comments in this thread?
One of these relates to what it is that you think the employer in this case did wrong? What is it about the case that has been outlined in this thread that justifies the teacher doing a runner? |
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nappyni
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, the school is breaking a contract term right now. they aren't providing the free chinese lessons it says I would get in the contract. It doesn't seem like a big thing, but technically they are breaching the contract. Like I said before I dont' want to leave them stranded but I have no guilt, I tried my best to work things out. I have been more than fair. The school needs to understand you can't treat your teachers like sh*t. I feel like I'm doing them a service, if they are openminded enough to see that I'm not a trouble maker and I just want what was promised to me and to be treated fairly, the school will do better in the long run. |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Try taking that Chinese lesson breach to the PSB  . Let's face it, you didn't do your homework, signed a contract and now that you are here in China you have realized you could have gotten a better deal. The breach you are talking about is ridiculous at best. How exactly has your school treated you bad? |
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thepreferrednomenclature
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Beijing, Chaoyang
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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If nappyni has not received the contractual remuneration to which he is entitled, his contract has been violated.
Face it.
As for nappyni not doing his homework: How exactly do you expect a man to study up on how to avoid being cheated out of his contractually mandated Chinese classes?
There exists a certain Chinese employer that will always try to take advantage of new, inexperienced teachers. There should be no shame in leaving these types of employers for honest ones, when one discovers that one is in fact being taken advantage of. In nappyni's case, his employer failed to remunerate him for his work, as per the contract. It's not ridiculous to expect to receive the Chinese lessons he was contractually to be given; the man needs to learn basic Chinese to be an effective teacher in China, let alone to order his favorite 酸辣白菜盖饭. Sheesh. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| thepreferrednomenclature wrote: |
| If nappyni has not received the contractual remuneration to which he is entitled, his contract has been violated. |
Where does it state anywhere in his posts that he has received anything less than the money he was promised by the school?
From my understanding his whole point is not that he didn't receive what he was promised but instead that he wants more money for the work he does as he believes now that he is getting less than other teachers in the area.
The OP can correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that he is being paid what he was promised for the number of hours that he agreed to work for.
There is no breach in this regard.
| thepreferrednomenclature wrote: |
| As for nappyni not doing his homework: How exactly do you expect a man to study up on how to avoid being cheated out of his contractually mandated Chinese classes? |
You seem to have misread Babala's post. I believe that Babala was referring to the fact that if the OP did not do his homework as far as working out what teachers get paid in that area and for how many hours then he can't complain now that his job doesn't match up to the conditions that others receive. Had he done his homework on this he would have been able to make an informed decision which may have resulted in him turning this job down.
I am not suggesting that he should suck eggs for the fact that he failed to check all of this out in the first place, but I don't see that it is fair to blame the employer. It seems to me that the employer made an offer (how ever bad that may seem in hindsight), the teacher accepted, but now the teacher wants to back out of the deal. Well no one can stop him from doing this, but I certainly don't think that any of us should condone it, as this sort of behavior reflects upon the professionalism of all foreign teachers. If we want to be treated with respect and treated fairly then we have a better chance of achieving this aim if we all act more responsibly.
An anaology for the above as I see it. You buy a TV from Shop A for RMB2,000. You are pretty happy with your deal and you head home. A week later your mates come over and one of them points out that he has just bought exactly the same TV but only paid RMB1,500 for his as he bought it from Shop B. With this knowledge, do you think that you have the right to go back to Shop A and demand that the shop owner give you RMB500 back as others are getting a better deal elsewhere? I doubt it. Were you ripped off? I don't think so as you were happy when you accepted the deal, as you wouldn't have accepted it if you weren't happy. This situation is based upon two things:
1. You were happy with the price
2. You were too lazy/ too busy / or not aware that shopping around could have brought you a better price
So what do you do? Well you probably keep the TV, suck it up, and next time you do better research before you make a purchase such as that.
In the OP's case this is what I think he should do. He should accept his lot, do his job, come the end of his contract he can either renegotiate his wage or go elsewhere.
| thepreferrednomenclature wrote: |
| There exists a certain Chinese employer that will always try to take advantage of new, inexperienced teachers. There should be no shame in leaving these types of employers for honest ones, |
Has anyone in this thread disagreed with this? Certainly neither I nor Babala have suggested that you should continue working for a dishonest employer.
In your own best interests however you should probably not do a runner from those employers but instead compile your case against them and approach the authorities for assistance in being released from your contract. If your case is indeed a strong one such as not being paid the agreed wage, being paid late, more hours than agreed to etc. then the authorities will likely agree. Approaching them with a single complaint about not getting Chinese classes is likely to be met with a certain degree of complacency I would think and will most likely result in the school agreeing to give you those classes - then you really are stuck there!
| thepreferrednomenclature wrote: |
| In nappyni's case, his employer failed to remunerate him for his work, as per the contract. |
Where does he state this in his posts?
I don't believe that he does, and in fact I believe that he conceeds that the only contract breach to date is the fact that he wasn't given Chinese classes. That was afterall his whole point in mentioning the Chinese classses. It was an effort to get some leverage against the employer as there were no other legitimate points to argue. Surely if you were not being paid what was promised this would be a greater concern than some free Chinese classes!
| thepreferrednomenclature wrote: |
| It's not ridiculous to expect to receive the Chinese lessons he was contractually to be given |
No it is not ridiculous to expect that he should get these classes and this is something that the OP should take up with his school. Has he even raised this matter with them? If so what was their response?
It is ridiculous however to suggest that this is justification for any teacher to do a runner from the job thereby leaving the other teachers and students without a teacher for those classes.
The OP's motives for leaving were stated clearly in his original post. He realizes that he can earn more money elsewhere and therefore wants to leave. It's as simple as that and I don't see anywhere that the employer is at fault/ |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| any one who wants to feel - small, exploited, manipulated, bullied, over worked, under paid, and depressed - just follow good ol' Clark's advice |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| nappyni wrote: |
| Actually, the school is breaking a contract term right now. they aren't providing the free chinese lessons it says I would get in the contract. It doesn't seem like a big thing, but technically they are breaching the contract. |
Man, I am in the same boat as you, but I see things hugely differently!
So they "breach the contract" by refusing to honour a clause that says you are entitled to free Chinese, right?
I have news for you, mate:
I have been here several years, and NEVER gotten free Mandarin!
I have pointed out to my employers how much it would be in their interest to give me those lessons; last year the came round to my view, hired several Chinese Mandarin instructors and - yes: they now have foreign students that pay full tuition; if I have time I am free to join one of those classes, but there are two downsides:
- The classes clash with my own schedule!
- "Your Mandarin is too good for you to join our class!" was another
argument I heard to my complaint that I wasn't asked to join any class!
Yes, if you stick around long enough you learn more Chinese than what they can teach you!
If you are so pedantic about your contractual rights, I am highly pessimistic for your employability in China... |
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nappyni
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| It's funny how people make up things. I don't remember mentioning my salary as a reason I want to leave. My contract has been broken several times by the school, the school has managed to fix some things and the chinese classes are just the latest term that has been broken. Anyway, thank you everyone for the advice, whether good or bad. |
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laska
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 293
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes the only way the boss gets the message is if you walk. No one has the right to exploit another human being.
Before you walk, take care of yourself. Don't walk until you have all the money you feel you deserve in your pocket.
An employer that stipulates such a comparatively large contract breech penalty without detailing what constitutes a breech obviously has a big problem with retention. They need to learn to use the carrot as well as the stick, but that's not your problem.
Of course you need to ask yourself the following questions: Would a reasonable human being feel that they had tried to solve the situation with diplomacy? Would a reasonable human being feel they were being exploited?
If so, then just do what it takes to take care of yourself.
Big disclaimer: Every job (maybe especially in China) will have it's share of bs. You should decide where your limit is, and prepare to negotiate better next time you sign a contract. Usually tolerance for bs goes up with higher compensation, right?
Visa problems, etc. I think can mostly all be solved. It's mainly a psychological hurdle. Worst case scenario, I think, is that you have to go to HK and come back on a tourist visa. Then have your tourist visa changed to a F visa or a Z visa. Consultants in big cities will do this for you. Just google china and visa.
In big cities, I believe you should be able to make at least RMB 100/hour. I think the going rate in Shanghai should be more around 150 for most work. Most teachers with experience who have been in Shanghai for a while don't seem to accept less than 180/hour.
20 hours a week? I don't know. I feel that I need one hour for prep and paperwork for every hour in the classroom. So 20 hours per week sounds a little high to me. But for a private school, I think it's probably an acceptable minimum.
If you have the temperament, why not go freelance? Then no one owns you. Upside: You have control over your schedule. Downside: Lack of stability.
Before going freelance in a city, I would probably recommend working there in a normal job for a while.
Before anyone blasts me, please note that I advocate responsibility to job and to students. But I don't think that we are helping the balance in China but advocating blind responsibility to contracts and employers, especially when employers don't take their responsiblity to the profession and to the students seriously.
Also, the above is general advice. The op needs to decide for himself whether he is being treated fairly. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| nappyni wrote: |
| I don't remember mentioning my salary as a reason I want to leave. |
Yes I stand corrected on this  I have just been back through the thread and it was others including myself that have been discussing the subject of money - not the OP. Apologies.
So the OP's problem is that he is working the agreed upon hours, but would prefer to work less. Although not necessarily related to money, it is in my opinion a similar situation. If you agreed to work those hours but have since changed your mind then you can try to negotiate those hours with the school but it is likely that you will be stuck with them. I still don't agree that the employer has done anything wrong in this case.
| nappyni wrote: |
| My contract has been broken several times by the school, the school has managed to fix some things and the chinese classes are just the latest term that has been broken. |
Although it probably has little bearing upon the validity of your current reasons for leaving considering that the school seems to have come good on those other aspects, I am curious. What were the other areas of the contract that the school failed to fulfill? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: |
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laska - great post full of common sense - just wish there were more of your type here and less of the "don't rock the boat" Clarks:D
Newbies hours are so important - if you want to enjoy a job and give some kind of quality 30 teaching hours is mega tough, 20 is a lot - 15 is good. Do 30 hours and the chances are your China situation will be mirroring the the nappyni syndrome.
as for money - bargain bargain bargain - 100/contact hour is that sum everybody should get as minimum in the cities, and is a sum which is quite easy to obtain directly from an employer - but bargaining is difficult when getting that first job, but still don't go bellow that 75/contact hour. |
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