|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
| Well, I'll just jump into this discussion one last time here to clarify that "sucks" is perhaps an overly emotional description which was said in the context of another highly emotional thread. Teaching Japanese (university) students is a whole lot less fun and a whole lot more work than teaching students from just about any other culture. That much is just fact. I speak from long personal experience here and I think anyone who has taught other nationalities will back me up on this. |
You've taught at exactly one school (a single university located in Japan's boondocks), yet feel knowledgeable enough to criticize all Japanese students everywhere? Give me a break.
Yes, the majority of Japanese students "suck"--no real revelation there. However, a large minority of them are excellent by any criteria, and if you are not meeting/reaching these students in your classes, it says a lot more about your attitude and teaching methodology than anything else.
And no offense, but where the heck is this EFL/ESL Shangri-La you keep alluding to? Certainly not Korea or Taiwan--the director and assistant director of this university's ESL program taught 8+ years in each of those countries...Japan seems to be a sort of EFL paradise by comparison. Certainly not most places in the Middle East either--e.g., I have never heard someone with a straight face praise the EFL teaching environment in Saudi Arabia.  
My EFL experience (almost 10 years) has all been exclusively in Japan. However, I've taught almost 10 years in the States as well, including overseeing (and teaching at) a university-affiliated ESL program on the West Coast. There, we had contracts with two universities in Saudi Arabia, another with the Malaysian government, and one with a technical college in Indonesia--not to mention a bunch of students from Japan, Taiwan, Mexico, Korea, etc.--giving me experience with most of the major non-European EFL/ESL student populations. And yeah, the Japanese (and Chinese, and Korean) students tended to be quieter at first--but most of them got over it. Indeed, the top students in each graduating class inevitably included a large percentage of Japanese students as well.
Bottom line--the majority of students everywhere (and in their own ways) are challenging. Accordingly, teaching (if you care and are doing it right) is difficult. You are always searching for both new material and new ways of better presenting that material. You are constantly re-evaluating both the desired learning outcomes for your various assignments/activities and your methods for helping students achieve/exceed those outcomes. Furthermore, even an ideal combination of lesson plans and delivery may not be enough to sway certain recalcitrant students and/or student populations.
Indeed, I firmly believe that even some wonderful teachers--whether because of personality, style or something else--are better fits for certain student populations than others. Accordingly, and as others have mentioned, if you don't feel you fit with Japanese students, consider going somewhere you do fit. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
one problem I think at universities is that classes don`t meet often enough, so it is harder for students to improve.
Also, students are given chances when they really should fail.
By contrast, at high schools, I have classes, where I see students between one and four hours a week. Clearly more instruction time helps the students learn more.
It seems that university work is not perfect, but of course there is a reason. If you get good pay, benefits, and free housing, well you are rather lucky.
Try teaching six days a week, paying 100,000 for an apartment, and getting less vacation. However, I have better students.
As teachers we have to motivate students as best we can.
I prefer spending my time teaching rather than sitting in an ivory tower with time on my hands. Nothing wrong with research or publishing articles , but I would rather teach. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big John Stud
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 513
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have to agree with taikibansei. Any teacher specially with a PHD who claims his students suck is a clear sign of that teacher's methods. And by the way, Koreans are a lot worst than Japanese students.
I enjoy teaching. Sure there are students who are hard to reach, but the many who I am making a positive impact on their lives gives meaning to what I do! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brooks wrote: |
one problem I think at universities is that classes don`t meet often enough, so it is harder for students to improve.
Also, students are given chances when they really should fail.. |
Brooks, I agree with many of your points. However, what you are saying is not true of all Japanese universities now--nor do I believe it will be true of the majority in, say, fifteen or so years.
A number of Japanese universities are currently looking to go "American style," with aggressive offerings of academic scholarships to superior students (aka, 特待生制度), more rigid graduation criteria (e.g., minimum GPAs and even TOEFL/TOEIC score requirements) and a greater (and more thoughtful) attention to the curriculum students encounter after entrance. E.g., both of the Japanese universities which interviewed me actually wanted me for mainly administrative positions--I was to help ensure these reforms occurred and continued.
Will these reforms "fix" Japan's often irritating students? Hardly. However, I get frustrated at repeated posts slamming both the EFL environment and the professionals working in Japan--and suggesting that Korea, Taiwan, Mexico, and the Middle East are some sort of EFL worker's paradise. Certainly, there are good, maybe great, students/schools in each of those places; however, there are also many which are not so great, and I'd argue that the challenges in each are not less than Japan, but different.
Oh, and what's all this about Japanese students not failing university classes? I failed more than my share...and they stayed failed. (Contrast this to some of the horror stories I can tell you about universities in the States...over beer someday, as I don't want to put them in writing.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
well, if things are changing, that`s good.
On NHK there was a story sometime ago about Yamanashi University.
There, students do get kicked out. And if they want to come back they have to have an interview to make sure they are ready.
And if you want to meet up for beer sometime, let me know.
I have more questions about Hokuriku.
Anyway, let me explain.
My wife is a university teacher in Kanagawa, and perhaps her university is old-fashioned. Classes meet once a week. Attendence becomes a big issue, because, I think if you miss eight classes a semester, that means you fail, and can`t take the exam. But then what happens if students come late or really late to class? Is that an absence or not?
When students are given chances to take exams again, failing doesn`t mean anything.
But I can`t blame universities for everything. Part of the problem lies with high schools. When students fail Japanese, English or math class in 12th grade, and then later the grade is changed, which allows them to go on to university, a great disservice is done. University teachers are forced to do remedial education.
I think the problem goes further back to junior high school, where students start to fall behind, especially in the 8th grade. Frankly, some students are on academic tracks when they are out of their league.
I wish vocational education would be considered more, like it is in Germany. But there is a stigma, you know. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think everyone is being a little hard on Abufletcher. For one, none of us have any idea about his teaching methods, and inferring about them from some rants on the internet is hardly sound evaluation. Two, he does teach in a rural area in Japan. These areas are last resort areas for perspective university students. The students who attend these universities are there because they are not hardworking.
Abu's sample size is not the basis for a essay, but rather an opinion, and everyone knows the best and strongest opinions often have no support whatsoever.
I've taught in two high schools in Japan and a few schools in the US. The students I've had in Japan for the most part have been either lazy or actually resistant to learning. Still there have been some who were joys to teach. Those good students probably won't go to a university in Shikoku, but there is a good chance the others will. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brooks wrote: |
My wife is a university teacher in Kanagawa, and perhaps her university is old-fashioned. Classes meet once a week. Attendence becomes a big issue, because, I think if you miss eight classes a semester, that means you fail, and can`t take the exam. But then what happens if students come late or really late to class? Is that an absence or not? |
No, not old-fashioned at all--though I've never heard of that attendance policy before! At Fukui, for instance, we'd fail students at 3-4 weeks. (Though there was always one or two faculty who wouldn't fail anybody...just like in the States.)
FYI, both universities that interviewed me have recently gone to having their classes meet 3-4 days per week.
| Quote: |
| But I can`t blame universities for everything. Part of the problem lies with high schools. When students fail Japanese, English or math class in 12th grade, and then later the grade is changed, which allows them to go on to university, a great disservice is done. University teachers are forced to do remedial education. |
Again, I agree 100%--indeed, I've posted both about this and the various causes for this in the past. Of course, at the state university I'm teaching at now, we continue to add additional remedial levels to deal with our students...now there's "beginning academic writing" (English 102), "pre-beginning academic writing" (English 101), and "basic writing" (English 90). Can't wait for "pre-basic writing"....
| Quote: |
I think the problem goes further back to junior high school, where students start to fall behind, especially in the 8th grade. Frankly, some students are on academic tracks when they are out of their league.
I wish vocational education would be considered more, like it is in Germany. But there is a stigma, you know. |
Vocational schools (senmon gakkou) only developed a stigma over the last 10 years or so. Indeed, until the late 90s (if I remember correctly), the majority of Japanese never tried to go to a 4-year university.
Still, don't get me wrong--even if all these reforms go through, I still don't see Japan becoming an EFL "worker's paradise" anytime soon. Part of the problem is that these proposed improvements are coming far too late--they're a last-ditch effort in the face of growing demographic and economic pressures. Given that Monbukagakusho expects up to 30% of Japan's universities to be gone by 2050, I'd say that it's going to get tougher, not easier, for EFL professionals in this country. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Guest, as usual the voice of reason, writes:
| guest of Japan wrote: |
| I think everyone is being a little hard on Abufletcher. For one, none of us have any idea about his teaching methods, and inferring about them from some rants on the internet is hardly sound evaluation. Two, he does teach in a rural area in Japan. These areas are last resort areas for perspective university students. The students who attend these universities are there because they are not hardworking.. |
Of course, you're right. Indeed, part of the reason I responded as I did is because I've been dealing all week with one class of university students (American) who make even the worst of my classes in Japan seem brilliant go-getters by comparison. And yeah, I've taught at other universities in the States, so I know this current university--also in a rural area and also seen as a last resort for the less academically inclined students--is not particularly representative. (Heck, it's not even representative of either this university or my usual classes...just a bad group....) I still want to rant about it, though.
My apologies to Abu if my initial post was unfair or harsh. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sweetsee
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
I am enjoying this thread very much. I teach difficult students every day but I have marvelous students, too, many in fact. And I want to say that there comes a tremendous satisfaction when you are able to see results in a difficult class, energy is contagious and it all starts with us.
Really nice post Guest.
Enjoy your weekend,
s |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Discussion in this thread has been just too good to pass up! And no I don't really take any personal offence at anything said since I figure I just represent a sort of strawman here: "The Japanese Students Suck Guy." 
| taikibansei wrote: |
| You've taught at exactly one school (a single university located in Japan's boondocks), yet feel knowledgeable enough to criticize all Japanese students everywhere? Give me a break. |
While this is basically true, I've also taught both undergrad and graduate students at the local "national University" (Kagawa Daigaku) and while the students there seemed to have some generally greater stock of knowledge, they weren't qualitatively different as students.
But of course as all educators know it's ridiculous to claim that students from this or that background are inherently "bad." What I've been talking about here all along is the relative (and subjective) joy I personally get from teaching this or that student population. I always do my best for whatever student population I have but I have to say that the "return" with Japanese students has generally been lower than with other groups. I have to push much harder to cover the same educational distance or achieve the same level of engagement. Has this been good for my teaching? Probably in some ways.
>And no offense, but where the heck is this EFL/ESL Shangri-La you keep >alluding to?
Shangri-La is of course a person thing. If one chooses to define an EFL Shangri-La as a professional working environment then the Gulf (excluding Saudi) is much closer to it than Japan. On hte other hand, you'll most likely be doing hardcore ESP -- no more soft listening/speaking classes where you can essentially teach whatever you want to. If we're talking "places to live" well Japan might much better in certain ways (though personally I prefer deserts to concrete). If we're talking earning potential Japan probably also comes out ahead. If were talking pure joy of dealing with students then Latin America would be high up on the list. Each person's Shangri-La is going to be different.
| Quote: |
| heard someone with a straight face praise the EFL teaching environment in Saudi Arabia. |
As anyone who has worked in the Gulf will tell you, Saudi is considered the worst of the worse of the Arabian Gulf and teachers who work there for long get a bad rep. The only reason anyone ever goes to Saudi is for the cash -- or they can't get a job elsewhere. I know employers in the UAE who are extremely hesitant to hire long-time Saudi expats. On the other hand, the better university positions in the UAE and Oman are considered really good jobs and there is a sense of professionalism at these places that Japanese university EFL can never hope to attain. Often this is just a matter of shear numbers. At the Language Centre at Sultan Qaboos University (Oman with a total student population of 14,000) there are now close to 120 (full-time) expat language instructors -- nearly all with MAs in TESOL or Linguistics and several years of full-time EFL teaching experience. Compare that with the typical situation at any Japanese university. At these Gulf universities there is a culture of professionalism that is for the most part lacking at Japanese universities where the EFL mentality seems to be dominated by an eikaiwa-style thinking.
| Quote: |
| Indeed, the top students in each graduating class inevitably included a large percentage of Japanese students as well. |
Surely if my judging Japnaese students on the basis of my sample from a small rural university is bogus, so too is judging them based on of a small elite that end up studying at a foreign university. At UCLA many of the top-drawer grad students were indeed Japanese. Does that say anything about Japnese students in general in Japan. I think not.
| Quote: |
| Bottom line--the majority of students everywhere (and in their own ways) are challenging. |
I agree entirely. The challenges come in different ways and as you say some people probably enjoy some types of challenges more than other types of challenges.
| Quote: |
| Indeed, I firmly believe that even some wonderful teachers--whether because of personality, style or something else--are better fits for certain student populations than others. Accordingly, and as others have mentioned, if you don't feel you fit with Japanese students, consider going somewhere you do fit. |
The good side is that every semester offers a brand new start. I already have my ideas for what I'm going to do differently next time and, who knows, maybe I'll be surprised (both with myself and with students)!
Still, in the final analysis, ff my entire job consisted of teaching general ed EFL classes, I'd be off to a job in the UAE or Oman in a flash. But it doesn't. And, unfortunately, there just aren't any opportunities to be teaching the subject matter I am teaching at Gulf universities (different regional priorities and attitudes towards the value of English). So I'm happy to stay here. On the whole. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Attendence becomes a big issue, because, I think if you miss eight classes a semester, that means you fail,?and can`t take the exam. But then what happens if students come late or really late to class? Is that an absence or not? |
My policy? Class meets 14-15 times per semester. Students are allowed to miss up to 3 classes for any reason (I call them "vacation days"), they can be going to the beach or just talking with friends outside or be in the hospital. It makes no difference and I don't ask to see those little absence slip they always want to give me. But if they are absent 4 times they fail -- automatically. They know this going in. Late counts as "half absent" with "late" being defined as any time after I take roll to about 30 minutes into class. After that they are absent. If they continue to sleep in class after a playful warning or two, they are also absent. No homework assignment. Absent. BTW, this is just the sort of bullpucky that I never had to deal with at Gulf universities. At times, it can be like pushing a donkey through a keyhole here! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Big John Stud wrote: |
| Any teacher specially with a PHD who claims his students suck is a clear sign of that teacher's methods. |
Having earned a Ph.D. in no way makes one a better classroom teacher. In fact, I'd say it's largely beside the point. I've know great language teachers with no formal credentials at all -- and plenty of not so good ones with MAs (or Ph.D.s). A Ph.D. is a specialist degree that qualifies one to teach specialized courses. That's it.
And you sure don't stop being a human being with good and bad "days at the office" just because you now hold a Ph.D. I get as frustrated as the next guy from time to time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sweetsee
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hello Abu,
Do you think Japanese university students get a lot of days off? I spoke with a former student today who told me they are off until March.
Cheers,
s |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes. Not only are (most) Japanese students the laziest students on earth but they also get like a million holidays. A semester is 14-15 weeks but I almost never get to actually teach that many times. In most cases I'm lucky to meet with students 12 times a semester.
Classes don't start until the first week of October and go until the Xmas/New Year break from Dec. 22 to Jan. 10 Then we come back for approximately three weeks before they get another holiday that lasts until the first week of April. This first semester ("zenki") lasts until about mid-July at which point we break until October again.
That's just the normal holiday periods. Then subtract all of the National Holidays and university days-off (sports day, student festivals, open houses, entrance test days, ...) and the result is less than 130 days of teaching a year. I've had semesters where a particularly unfortunate clustering of these days-off has meant I don't see students for three weeks between 90minute class sessions.
Is it any wonder that it's hard to get any steam going?
Of course, for me personally I suppose this is one of those 2-sides-of-the-coin situations. I teach fewer days here than any other job I've ever had -- and most likely less than any job I could ever have anyplace. Maybe that's one of the reasons I stay. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
