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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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 Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| 1. A visa in a passport to China will be accepted throughout China and is not a provincial matter. |
Of course. Absent some overriding national security interest (i.e. the Bozo who unfurled a Falun Gong banner in Tiananmen being a prime example), it's highly unlikely anybody could refuse to recognize a valid visa.
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| 2. At a provincial level there may differing interpretations of the purpose of the value of certain visas (the �F� visa being a good example of this), but the legislation in regards to appropriate usage remains constant throughout the country. |
I think that differing interpretations arise not from the provincial PSB says, but rather from what different posters say the PSB says.
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| 3. The �Z� visa is only a transitional visa of a short duration (in the order of one to two months) and this visa has no value other than being an essential step in the process to becoming a legal foreign teacher in China. |
My latest "Z", obtained outside of China in June 2005, was supposed to be just a bridge over a three-month gap while waiting for my PR to be approved. After the wait in HK, when I got my passport back the "Z" visa was valid for one complete year. Returning to GZ, the PSB stated I needn't register and that I would receive no little green book as those had been discontinued throughout all of China. Oh, and the "Z" visa does not say "Visa" it is entitled whatever the term was that Spidey used -- Residence Permit for Foreigners blah, blah, blah.
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| 4. The �Z� visa is replaced by the other working documents and a Residence Permit For Foreigner In The People's Republic Of China. Which is the sticker placed in your passport and which replaces the previous Green Book. |
This is what happened in June 2004 when I obtained a new "Z" in HK, though at that time they still had the little green books.
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| 5. Green Books are no longer given in any province in China???? |
Should be the case and seems to be so.
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| 6. The Residence permit permits you to stay in China for the purposes of work as well as enter and leave the country at will during its duration. It therefore supersedes the previous process of having to obtain permission to leave the country. |
Right. Of the previous process of getting a "Z" visa specifically marked for multiple entries. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Spiderman Too wrote: |
| Quote: |
| My last one was one year. The one before that 60 days. |
Hey JC! How about showing everyone that you are not a maliciously, misleading malcontent? Scan your 12 month 'Z' visa (black out your personal details, of course), post it to one of the many photo hosting websites, and post a link right here so everyone can see it! |
Just to show you know what you're talking about, let's make it financially worthwhile for me to educate you and take the time to scan and post my latest visa. Find a way to put $250 in the hands of someone that we both know and once the scan is posted, I get the cash.
Or are you afraid to lose that much money?  |
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cubit
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 117
Location: Changchun
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:17 am Post subject: |
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I keep seeing, on different threads, that a Z visa must be acquired prior to coming to China and you are breaking the law if you arrive to work on a L or F visa.
However, 2.5 years ago I arrived to teach with an L visa, gave my passporst to my employer who presumably took it to the PSB, and recieved it back shortly with a leagal Z visa. Since then my passport has been back to the PSB several times in different provinces and I have never had a problem.
Both the school I used to teach for and the school I manage now are legally permitted to hire foreigners and have always had people arrive on a Z visa.
At the school I manage I always advise teachers to arrive on an L visa. Here is my reasoning: We pay for a teacher's residence permit and FEC but not the visa with which they enter the country (reason for this is that some people use agencies to get their visas no hassle and the cost could go way up). It will cost the teacher less to get an L visa than a Z visa. There is no time lost in mailing things back and forth. We pay for the medical exam to be done here (way cheaper then at home).
It is just incredibly easy all around to enter on an L visa. I have never heard of anyone entering on a L visa and getting their Z/res permit after arriving having any trouble, as long as they were going to a school that could legally employ foreigners. Again, I did it that way, have been to the PSB before, as has almost every foreigner I know. Therefore I assume entering on an L visa and getting it changed once in China is a least quasi-legal. It has to be, otherwise the PSB would have refused to issue the residence permits/Z visas to every teacher I know.
The only advantage I see to entering on a Z visa is that the teacher knows beforehand that the school is able to employ us legally, otherwise it is just a major hassle.
My advice to newbies:
If you are pretty sure that your school is on the up and up, go ahead and come on the L visa. It is much more conveinent. Don't accept a job without contacting a current or past teacher at the school; ask them if they got the correct visa while there. If you are not sure, then go through all the trouble of getting the Z. |
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Spiderman Too
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 732
Location: Caught in my own web
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:20 am Post subject: |
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$250 is not that much money, Joe!
A simple request for you to demonstrate your bona fides, and you failed!
It doesn�t matter anymore Joe. By now all forum readers will know what category of poster Joe C. belongs to. |
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Spiderman Too
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 732
Location: Caught in my own web
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I have never heard of anyone entering on a L visa and getting their Z/res permit after arriving having any trouble |
Man, this must be the thread for errant advicve!
Hey Cubit, do a search of threads on this forum and you will find details of many F.T.s seeking advice and help after running into trouble having an 'L' visa converted to a 'Z' visa! |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| cubit wrote: |
I keep seeing, on different threads, that a Z visa must be acquired prior to coming to China and you are breaking the law if you arrive to work on a L or F visa.
However, 2.5 years ago I arrived to teach with an L visa, gave my passporst to my employer who presumably took it to the PSB, and recieved it back shortly with a leagal Z visa. Since then my passport has been back to the PSB several times in different provinces and I have never had a problem. |
I believe, Cubit, that the vast majority of foreign teachers employed in China have gone about it the way you (and I) have done it. It is perfectly allowable for the person to arrive on an "L" or an "F" visa and have it changed by their employer to a "Z". During the approximately two to three weeks it takes to actually process the "Z" visa the foreigner is not technically supposed to work, but in my experience the PSB will always overlook this.
| cubit wrote: |
At the school I manage I always advise teachers to arrive on an L visa. Here is my reasoning: We pay for a teacher's residence permit and FEC but not the visa with which they enter the country (reason for this is that some people use agencies to get their visas no hassle and the cost could go way up). It will cost the teacher less to get an L visa than a Z visa. There is no time lost in mailing things back and forth. We pay for the medical exam to be done here (way cheaper then at home).
It is just incredibly easy all around to enter on an L visa. I have never heard of anyone entering on a L visa and getting their Z/res permit after arriving having any trouble, as long as they were going to a school that could legally employ foreigners. |
Exactly. There is also another disadvantage for the employer to facilitate the potential foreign teacher's "Z" visa prior to their arrival. What if the foreigner shows up, gets their residence permit stamped in their passport and runs away? Of if the FT turns out to be a flake, fake or freak? The school is out the time, effort and $$ used to go through the "Z" visa process overseas. In addition, most schools have a quota of how many FTs they can employ / obtain visas for. If you have, say, a quota of three, but you give one to a flake, fake, freak or runner, you are left to run a business that desperately needs three FTs on merely two.
| cubit wrote: |
| The only advantage I see to entering on a Z visa is that the teacher knows beforehand that the school is able to employ us legally, otherwise it is just a major hassle. |
To an extent, true. I mean, it doesn't insure that the tenure of employment will be problem-free, that the employer is reputable or that your "employer" isn't really your employer (see numerous threads about getting screwed by "agents"). |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Spiderman Too wrote: |
$250 is not that much money, Joe!
A simple request for you to demonstrate your bona fides, and you failed!
It doesn�t matter anymore Joe. By now all forum readers will know what category of poster Joe C. belongs to. |
Obviously to you $250 is a lot.
I teach semi-literate, but trainable, language learners for $30 an hour.
I'm going to teach you something infinitely more difficult for you to grasp for free? Oh, and I don't accept food stamps. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Spiderman Too wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I have never heard of anyone entering on a L visa and getting their Z/res permit after arriving having any trouble |
Man, this must be the thread for errant advicve!
Hey Cubit, do a search of threads on this forum and you will find details of many F.T.s seeking advice and help after running into trouble having an 'L' visa converted to a 'Z' visa! |
Why should he do the work to search. If what you say is true, post the links. |
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cubit
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 117
Location: Changchun
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: |
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Ok 
I did the search and Spiderman Too is right, there have been some people who have had problems. I found 7969's post in November.
So in some places this may no longer be an option. However, I still think that for the vast majority of people it will not be a problem. I still have yet to meet a teacher (to my knowledge) who has entered the country on a Z visa.
I will still advise my potential teachers to arrive on a L visa, because I know it will not be a problem here.
For everyone else I repeat- I think for the vast majority of teachers it will not be a problem to enter on a L visa and get it changed, as long as you are going to a school that can legally employ foreigners. But I see now that there is a chance for problems. I guess it is a choice between convience or assurance. |
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Spiderman Too
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 732
Location: Caught in my own web
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I teach ....... language learners for $30 an hour. |
Wow Joe! I earn only USD18.75 per hour so I guess everyone should believe you and ignore me!
Did you ever know that you're my hero, and ev'rything I would like to be .... |
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A Ver
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 29
Location: España
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Spiderman Too wrote: |
Wow Joe! I earn only USD18.75 per hour so I guess everyone should believe you and ignore me!
Did you ever know that you're my hero, and ev'rything I would like to be .... |
Pity you're underpaid.
So, it seems like the purpose of this forum is for someone to be "right" and the other "wrong"? Sounds really mature to me. 
For those who have been in China a while, it should be more than abundantly evident that nothing is uniform or consistent in this country where there are so many accurate albeit different, conflicting versions of reality. There are a very limited number of things � if any at all -- in this country that one can say, with absolute certainty, are done in only one way even when it comes to visas.
I know a guy in Guangzhou who has been living and working as an English teacher there for three years without passport or visa. He simply reports to the Public Security Bureau every sixty days to file a report and they let him stay. Or the guy who for the first 15 years of his 20-year stay in Guangzhou has been running a very well-known and well-established business on a 15-year series of tourist visas. Or the other people (as in more than one) who have been living here and working in a party (i.e. CCP) school for about seven years on tourist visas. So this idea of only one correct way is a crock. |
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Spiderman Too
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 732
Location: Caught in my own web
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So, it seems like the purpose of this forum is for someone to be "right" and the other "wrong"? Sounds really mature to me. |
No, the purpose of this thread is to post accurate, reliable information. That really is mature!
| Quote: |
| I know a guy in Guangzhou who has been living and working as an English teacher there for three years without passport or visa. He simply reports to the Public Security Bureau every sixty days to file a report and they let him stay. |
This really has turned into a thread for B.S. nutcases trying to claim their 15 minutes of fame!
A Ver, please do enlighten us. What other countries do you know that will allow a foreign national without a passport (let alone a visa) to stay???? |
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cubit
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 117
Location: Changchun
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Spidey,
Why are you so angry, man? I've never seen someone get so worked up about visas. You do a good job of correcting other people (you got me), but you're gonna give yourself a coronary.
Obviously the guy with no passport is unbelievable, but I've yet to see a nutcase. Unless it's that guy who overuses exclamation points and question marks. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Double post
Last edited by Roger on Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe C. wrote: |
Not exactly. There is no such thing as a residence permit anymore. The full passport-page sticker affixed to your passport serves as both visa, residence permit and multiple re-entry authorization. Those little green books that were once known as residence permits no longer exist.
I am also somewhat sceptical that HK is a genuine alternative since the final say over whether you can work at that school (by cutting out the agent) lies with the PSB - and who knows how much clout the agent has over the police? |
Any visa issued by the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs (i.e. the Chinese State Department) must be valid anywhere in Chinese territory. Unless you obtained the visa by fraud or are a subversive, the PSB cannot refuse to recognize your visa. To think otherwise is ludicrous.
| Roger wrote: |
| In Hong Kong, you will have to go to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Visa Section, 18 Harbour Rd., Wanchai; it may take a couple of days... |
And this is just about the only thing that Roger advises that is kosher.[/quote]
Cheesauce, what a pesky, adversarial poster you are trying to be! I dare say I said nothing wrong even if you elect to split hairs again; if you want to call your "Residence Permit..." a "Visa" that's fine and dandy but it proves you no more right than I was! I didn't mention that green residence booklet because I assume we are NOT discussing it anyway; it's been done away with formally, officially and for good! Residence permits are now stuck in your passport!
And I want to tell you, Joey, that I still stand by what I opined on the work visa issued in Hong Kong; think it through too, and try to see my point: I am not saying a visa obtained in HK is "illegitimate" or "illegal", far from that! I am merely hinting at the possibility that the FT who posed that question in the first place might still have to deal with that agent in the town where his school is located. The agent might have a lot of influence over the PSB in that place, obviously more than the school has... In the end, the agent, feeling that he has been ditched can seek revenge.
Finally, I have heard - but not experienced it myself - that some FTs were turned away from that Visa Office in Hong Kong under the pretext that they must get their work visa in their home country!
So, our poster may or may not succeed in HK! Who knows? |
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