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latefordinner
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 973
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 Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: |
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vikdk:
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| Why's it a matter for another thread - regulations and corruption go hand in hand in China. |
I was thinking of starting another thread dealing with official corruption, but evidently many here agree with you to some extent.
Ricepaddy questions CWG:
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| I certainly have experienced, and been affected by, corruption.... |
without providing any juicy details. Am I the only one with a slightly perverse sense of curiosity here? Seems to me this was reason enough for another thread, but this is what we've got. So I guess it's my turn to entertain the cuious.
My first experience with corruption occurred early in my first contract. The school I came to gave me a letter for an F visa, and encouraged all its FTs to come on L or F visas. (Two of the FTs had Z visas from other schools, but they were part timers who just came in one day a week as their sidejobs) I was assured (and we all believe everything our bosses tell us, right?) that this was perfectly acceptable. Then one evening I'm in the middle of New Interchange and my class is interupted by a couple of uniformed gentlement from the PSB. OK, time for break, people. They demand to see my passport and, on seeing the F visa, impound it and tell me to come to the central police station next morning at 8:30 sharp. There was another FT there that evening, and she had the same thing happen to her. She was DOS, FWIW. Next morning we ask one of the CTs to come to the station with us, but he hems and hedges then finally declines. The headmistress of the school had asked us not to go, and she instructed him not to go with us under any circumstances, but to detain us should we choose to ignore her request. We decided that we should go anyway, because it isn't nice to keep the nice policemen waiting. We were quickly ushered into the back office. Guess who we met there? The policemen interviewed us, gave us our passports back, and warned us both that we were working illegally. We were told that nothing would be done this time, but if we were caught working illegally again we could well be deported.
The next day there was a staff meeting, and the headmistress explained that the school owner had spent the afternoon and evening meeting with various PSB friends and contacts, smoothing everything over, and that nothing of the kind would happen again. Apparently someone new had been promoted into that section locally, and this was his way of making himself known and getting his slice of the action. After all, she mused, how else is an honest policeman going to make a living if he doesn't seek bribes? And no, that school never had any trouble with the PSB after that. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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a Clark quote
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| I think that Roger has helped to make my point about corruption not affecting most foreign teachers, despite what some people would have you believe. |
both Clark and Roger have talked in early threads about the high cost for the chinese employer involved in employing the FT - I would also like to summise that the various problems an employer may run into (permission to hire FT's, non qualified FT's, farming FT's out to schools that don't have permission etc. etc.) can be helped along with the right connections in the right places, a few banquets and a few gifts, the Chinese red envelope, maybe a little private agreement on a monthly basis - surely additional costs in the hiring a foreign monkey game.
Roger and Clark tell us in earlier threads that our wages and wage structures are related to an employers investments - not affected -  - take a look at you wage packet, some of you will maybe have a different opinion |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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vikdk please don't credit words to me that are not my own. I have never stated the things that you suggest I have above which certainly suggests to me that you fail to research before you make posts.
latefordinner I know of a similar experience in Taiwan many years ago. In that case guanxi certainly played a part but no money changed hands. While I accept that 'guanxi' is in some cases just another name for 'corruption', there does seem no way to know whether or not money changed hands in your case either. Possibly your bosses reference to such was in fact true, or perhaps your boss was just trying to build up your debt to the school for protecting you.
Of course I do not have any idea how much corruption may or may not go on as I am not privy to this. I base my opinions on the knowledge that public officials who are caught accepting bribes face quite serious consequences here and it seems to me that accepting bribes on behalf of foreign teachers caught working illegally is hardly worth the risks involved. I very much doubt that the problem in the context of foreign teachers is as widespread as some people suggest, and in most cases the people who claim that it is widespread have no personal knowledge of such themselves but are merely passing on 'what they heard'  |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sure we'll just have to take your word for it clark - you dont think an employers investments (costs) have any bearing on our wages - after all you seem to know so so much
must be those nice bosses are keeping all that money themselves - rather than giving it to any nasty officials - prehaps thats why the wages are so low |
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fitzgud
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Henan province
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Clark
"My lord thow doest protest to much,� for in this time �how brown hast thyn sneck become? |
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latefordinner
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 973
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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CWG:
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While I accept that 'guanxi' is in some cases just another name for 'corruption', there does seem no way to know whether or not money changed hands in your case either. Possibly your bosses reference to such was in fact true, or perhaps your boss was just trying to build up your debt to the school for protecting you.
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Well I guess I have your word for it over hers. Actually she wasn't just trying to build up my sense of debt to them, the school was facing a revolt. Two of us were caught working that evening, but had the gentlemen called during the day they might have found another 8 or 10 FTs. As more than one FT remarked, "Teaching is my livlihood; why should I stay here and risk deportation for doing my job?"
I didn't have to stay an F at that school, nor did most of the others. I was then qualified for the Z and have since obtained one because I eventually found a school that didn't do business that way. (Or if they did I didn't hear about it) As far as we were concerned, legal documentation was part of what we were promised when we signed our contracts, and deportation wasn't. The school owed us. They did what they had to to keep us.
This I think is where you're missing the thread. PSB aren't accepting bribes as a favour to gangsta FTs, and bosses aren't paying them as a favour to FTs. It's a cost of business for some schools, partly because some schools can't get their act together and partly because some officials won't give the schools necessary certification to hire foreigner teachers.
Of course mine is but one story among many, and as you have gone to pains to point out, not every story is one of simple corruption, or guanxi, of incompetence or even true. That is why I was interested in starting another thread; there is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there, but when it comes to some things we FTs are like the proverbial blind men and the elephant. I doubt that any of us can positively state how much or little corruption is out there. I'd rather gather some stories and work from the evidence towards a hypothesis, rather than begin with an argument and choose the evidence to fit.
Besides, a lot of posters here have better stories to tell than I have. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| latefordinner wrote: |
| I didn't have to stay an F at that school, nor did most of the others. I was then qualified for the Z and have since obtained one because I eventually found a school that didn't do business that way. (Or if they did I didn't hear about it) As far as we were concerned, legal documentation was part of what we were promised when we signed our contracts, and deportation wasn't. The school owed us. They did what they had to to keep us. |
I think that this sort of behavior by a school is reprehensible. In your earlier post it wasn't clear whose fault it was that you were working illegally, but now that it is clear that it was the school I do tend to believe that yours is more likely an example of some form of corruption at the level of authority than not. Probably more likely guanxi than an outright monetary bribe - but corruption nonetheless. Have you written a review about this school as I think that your experience could be valuable for others researching that school?
| latefordinner wrote: |
| This I think is where you're missing the thread. PSB aren't accepting bribes as a favour to gangsta FTs, and bosses aren't paying them as a favour to FTs. It's a cost of business for some schools, partly because some schools can't get their act together and partly because some officials won't give the schools necessary certification to hire foreigner teachers. |
Actually I do fully understand that this is why many bribes are paid in China and why corruption has traditionally been such a problem here. It is not always outright greed, but often just the way the system works as is in fact indicative of the ineffectiveness of the system as a whole.
My point in this thread has been to call into question that common catch phrase that everything that goes against foreigners here must be due to corruption. I don't agree with this at all, and it is clear to me that most of the problems that we face at official levels are due to incompetance, not bribes.
| latefordinner wrote: |
| I doubt that any of us can positively state how much or little corruption is out there. |
I guess that this is the nature of corruption. We know that it exists. We know that it has some level of effect upon on our lives. But we don't know to what extent. I personally believe that it is not a big factor in the lives of most foreign teachers who live and work here - but I guess that I should add the caveat that I am referring to foreign teachers who are working here legally. Of course schools that employ teachers illegally are far more likely to be involved in such activities than schools that are above board.
| latefordinner wrote: |
| I'd rather gather some stories and work from the evidence towards a hypothesis, rather than begin with an argument and choose the evidence to fit. |
Despite appearances to the contrary I totally agree with this view. Sometimes it takes a bit of prodding however to get these stories to come out |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:49 am Post subject: |
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prod prod
I would like to start a counter thread called - my wonderfull experiences with the boys in blue - you know all those anecdotal stories about how we work within the protective arms of our official protectors - how we can go to them with our job related problems - how we feel they are just and unbiased and how they will respect our views over those of a nasty employer - and now matter how many dinners or red envelopes they get from the boss they are always there to protect us and our contracts through all them wonderfull laws and regulations.
come on kids - lets proove Clark right - gut feeling is nothing, even if you are feeling totally shitty - buck up whingers evidence is the key to everything -prod prod |
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marui
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 66
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
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I worked part time on an 'F' visa for a while between 'Z' visa Uni jobs in Hangzhou, at a large Business English Mill which shall remain nameless.
Anyway, one day during class, 2 uniformed members of the PSB arrived and demanded to see all the FT's passports. I returned with my passport, gave it to the PSB guys, who just took down my name and returned it to me without any other questions/comment. I found this a little odd, but after they left a Chinese teacher told me that the Owner and one of the PSB officers had connections (former classmates or something) and everything would be ok, besides gifts were given and the PSB were now very happy!
Indeed they never came again in the following 6 months I was there, and as far as I know the school is still open and employing mainly part time teachers from other Uni's or backpackers etc.
"Hangzhou, 105 miles (170km) southwest of Shanghai, is also the capital of Zhejiang province, one of the most prosperous regions in China." (quote from The Times Newspaper, UK,14/03/2006)
The fact that there is blatant corruption amongst the fluent in English, cream of the PSB who deal with Foreign Affairs, in one of the most prosperous regions of China says a lot about the extent of corruption in general and about just how much that law actually applies. |
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Super Frank
Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Back to the point, I was asked for degree cert. yesterday by my school for my visa. I said i didnt have one and they knew that before i flew in from england. Their reply? Its ok we'll fake one.
It is now a requirement I believe, so my days may be numbered... |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| It is now a requirement I believe |
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| Its ok we'll fake one |
please don't worry the requirement has been met - schools which just require white faces that speak English shouldn't be unduely troubled by regulation |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: |
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as a footnote to my last post - this isn't a critism on the unqualified FT or Super Frank- more a type of warning for the serious teacher coming to China - respect for your skills may be hard to find in those quaters which find white English speaking skin more attractive than teaching qualification. But don't let this put you off coming, because as indicated by at least a couple of posters there are islands of hope that actually recognise qualification can be an indication of quality. Wether this is because of economic, regulatory, or pedagogic reasons is not really made apparent - but there is a growing trend for the chinese customer - fee paying students - to check out a teachers credentials before parting with any dough - maybe in the end a much more effective regulatory measure than any PSB presence!!!
Question is can they tell a good fake from the bad |
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