Job Discussion Forums

guest of Japan · Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1601 Location: Japan

First of all, I'm white, so read on at your own risk.

As for getting a job; the larger schools seem to be pretty color blind in hiring teachers. I do not know if that is the case for smaller schools.

Certainly there is a perceived expectation that the English teacher is going to be white due to the fact that most native English speakers in the world are white. Hollywood movies sell white America abroad and many schools try to capitalize on this image to sell classes. Most advertisements for English language schools with be focused around a white teacher or actor, or cute rabbit.

Most schools would be more than happy to employ all whites, but I think it is unlikely that they would employ all blacks, or all people of Asian descent. In that sense there is some descrimination in hiring, but overall finding a job as an English teacher in Japan will not be hampered much by skin color. Professional qualifications, experience and personality will be the three biggest factors.

I think people of Japanese descent will find it pretty easy to be accepted in Japanese culture, although never completely. Even native born Japanese who live abroad for as little as a year find descrimination as a result of their exposure to foreign ideas and practices. As PaulH has pointed out there is a lot of descrimination both de jure and de facto towards asians born in Japan who are not of Japanese descent. Immigrants from non-western countries most certainly occupy the lowest rung in the social hierarchy. These include Chinese, Africans, Middle Easterners, Philipinos, and a host of others. Whites from English speaking countries enjoy to top spot on the list of ousiders. Blacks seem to have a mixed bag of predudice and star appeal due to the popularity of hip hop culture.

Westerners of Asian descent (not including Japanese) seem to be the biggest enigma to Japanese. In some senses they have cultural similarity which makes Japanese feel comfortable with them. They have the western appeal as a result of being from a western country. However, they still don't fit the image of a westerner and they are not culturally similar enough to the Japanese to be accepted for as equals. Due to this enigma, I think it is quite difficult to classify the experience. I suppose it will very from invividual to individual based on surroundings and the way things are perceived by the individual.

I apologize for my use of blanket statements. I have also intentionally stayed away from the American argument as that was not part of the original poster's question.

cafebleu · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404

I cannot believe the bile that poured forth from the keyboard of `oreyade`. I feel sorry for you if you honestly believe that the hysteria, not to mention racism, that you directed against such voices of moderation as Glenski and Paul amounts to a genuine argument.

I am not Asian descent but I know about the experiences that some Asian Americans and Asian Europeans have had in Japan because they told me about those experiences. Sorry - they didn`t experience the warm and fuzzy Japanese welcome of Asian looking foreigners that Oreyade insists is the norm in Japan. If anything, they found themselves in awkward positions at times - they are not identifiably foreign in their looks and don`t receive the leeway that someone such as myself does.

As a hakujin I find the discrimination in Japan cuts both ways. I can live here without being expected to know the language (although I am fluent to a certain level of Japanese) and the Japanese generally make allowances for me, even if at times these allowances are patronising and don`t take into account the fact that many white foreigners know quite a bit about Japan, Japanese society, and the history behind such practices as discrimination against their own people - burakumin - plus the true history whereby Japan slaughtered and tortured countless Asians during the 2nd World War. A history that even now cannot be taught in schools despite the fact that every western country teaches the history of its colonialism to its own people.

I don`t advise you to get into colonial history Oreyade - you will find there are any number of knowledgeable people who can point out the recent bloody and unspeakably cruel colonialism of Japan which has resulted in great revulsion against Japan even today in China, Taiwan, Korea, Thailand to name some countries. Stick to the point of the original poster. I will.

The Asian Americans and Asian Europeans have had difficulties with Japanese society`s attitude towards them. Yes, they have found jobs with schools that cared about them as teachers rather than faces, although it is true that some schools discriminate in this way. Yet unfortunately most of the time the schools are responding to customer complaints that the Asian looking teacher is not a native speaker because they look Asian. In their social lives they find it difficult as they don`t get the warm, fuzzy behaviour Oreyade generalised about - they encounter reactions that range from a certain level of acceptance to a baffled inability to accept that they are American or European people who just happen to have Asian ancestry.

Many although not all of the problems encountered by Asian Americans and Asian Europeans have to do with the racist notion engrained still in Japanese law and society that nationality is based on blood. Despite the fact that the Japanese are not really Japanese as a single entity but of mixed Mongolian, Han Chinese and Korean blood.

Therefore the Asian Americans and Asian Europeans I know fall into a no man`s land here. The younger Japanese are changing to an extent but given the nature of Japanese politics and non compulsory voting, it is fair to assume that Japanese law and society are not going to change in the near future regarding what it is to be Japanese. I could have a child here but my child would never be considered Japanese truly because the child would have a white parent - me.

The American Asians and European Asians I mentioned have talked to me personally about the problems they face because of Japanese attitudes - and I have no reason to disbelieve them. I like the Japanese very much and enjoy living here but as somebody who was brought up in a society where there are laws which actually can enforce non discrimination, and in which most social/political/economic topics are discussed freely without the censorship that is found in Japanese society, I can see just how this lack of free information flow and repression of historical fact hurts Japanese society, including those who are not Japanese but live here.

Sorry Oreyade - facts exists even if there are those who refuse to acknowledge their existence. Your unwarranted bile and hysteria indicate to me that maybe the truth is hurting you and you are transferring that by your rabid outpourings against voices of moderation on this forum.

locagrl814 · Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 58

[quote="cafebleu"]I cannot believe the bile that poured forth from the keyboard of `oreyade`. I feel sorry for you if you honestly believe that the hysteria, not to mention racism, that you directed against such voices of moderation as Glenski and Paul amounts to a genuine argument.

I agree with cafebleu. Sorry, Oreyade but I think you were being too harsh on PAULH and Glenski. I think that such animosity only begets hatred and discrimination in our society.

Sticking to the topic, those of Asian ancestry CAN find jobs in Japan although the experiences that come with it may be different from others.

Geesh people let's stop the arguing.... can't we all just get along???

oreyade · Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 23 Location: japan

to rcn and other Asians in here...

It really hit home when you strongly mentioned, based on your real struggles, that looking Asian in Japan hinders your chances of easily getting an English teaching job. I totally agree with you. What made me want to reply to this forum in the first place was my shock at the nonchalant way your real experiences were toned down and quickly dismissed as over exaggerated imagination... How cold-hearted, insensitive and narrow-minded... Part of their simple rationale was that they already saw some Asian person in a school somewhere, so there's no problem... But think about it.... That narrow idea is only about a snip in time, a brief moment, out of context; it doesn't reveal whatever long-term experiences or struggles, across time, that their "looked-at" token Asian had to go through in life to get to that point. Ironically, (and I assume you're working at an English job now) rcn, maybe some of your White colleagues at your school, having seen you, can now comfortably assume to themselves: "well, since rcn is working here, then those Asians have no problems." You have to keep at it, emphasize your skills and education (as I already mentioned in an old post) and develop a greater tolerance for discriminations, which some privileged people don't have to face and have trouble seeing (or don't care to see).

About the discrimination of preferring White people over Asians for English-teaching jobs, from some pathetic Japanese employers (or I guess its 'non-employers' when you think about it). I agree rcn, that's a fact. So where does that attitude come from any ways?? Do social and racial attitudes just pop into people's heads out-of-nowhere, from a neutral void, is discrimination really 'isolated'? No, of course not. I think we all know in every country on earth, peoples' racial-ethnic images are learned, taught, transmitted and reinforced over time, from mind to mind, through education, media, relatives, friends (and now in Japan through the White-faced English teaching industry.) Why do some Asians think that way, aren't we all Asians?? The answer is from outside Asia, from the West... In Japan you have to remember that Japan tried to adopt Western ways (including Western colonialism) in order to, ironically and tragically, react and strengthen itself against the more powerful Western powers. But that tragic plan was stopped, Japanese people were radioactively massacred by the Americans. And Japan was directly occupied, and remember the American military is still here across Japan, today! (know about the recent rapes of Japanese girls by US solders?) After the war American ideas, American English (why do you think the preference for 'American accents' in schools today?), and White faces were beamed across Japan and the Japanese were taught that being American, being White, was the best way to go... out with old Oriental garbage... in with the Great White Race...

It didn't just happen to Japan, it happened to all of Asia.

White face = beautiful! handsome! blonde! democracy! cool! English! freedom!...

Asian face = fetch me my slippers chop chop, caan yoou understaaand Englisshh?...

And now today, you have Asians spending their salaries on nose extensions, eye enlargements, bleach, skin whitening fluids... (I think all the Asians and Asian Americans in here know what I'm talking about)... There are even pathetic tongue-lengthening operation by Koreans and Chinese who think it will help them speak perfect English!

Colonialism and its real consequences don't end the moment you close some boring old book in a library about irrelevant dead people. And if you're not into reading about heavy topics don't worry.... Because its all still here, now, VERY relevant, in our daily lives working in Asia and elsewhere. Can't you see it? Do you want to see it?? If you choose to ignore or don't care then it that's your lost opportunity to wake up...

Get the all the facts straight if you can.... Think about that next time you hear about Beckham-mania, or see a Geos poster, or get turned down from an interview because you weren't White, or read about more "funny" Asian English, or whatever else you experience in the future...

peace

oreyade · Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 23 Location: japan

Hey everyone, its interesting, take a look.....

See what happens when you replace the word: "Japan" with another word, in cafebleu's bile and hysteria, er, oh gosh, sorry, I mean quote....

Its very curious, but you know what?... I think the list of countries is actually growing longer, more diverse, and totally global in extent....

See for yourself:

guest of Japan · Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1601 Location: Japan

Oreyade, your reasoning is very similar to that of Malcom X. Don't take that negatively, I very much appreciate Malcolm X for his rhetoric and leadership. He certainly did a great service for humanity.

However, this is nearly 40 years later and the battle is not the same.

You paint Asians as sheep in the white man's flock. You certainly have adopted a patronizing tone in your call for unity.

Has the idea of cultural diffusion ever ocurred to you? It's been going on since before civilization. Cultures adapt various ideas and views from other cultures. In some cases it is forced, in others it is done voluntarily. An Asian can have blonde hair without rejecting their Asian identity. A Scandinavian can have an avid interest in Buddhism without first rejecting a Christian denomination as primitive and unenlightened. When dealing with an entire culture, some things are fads or fashions and others more profound. Some good changes will come. Some not so good changes with come. And most importantly, the ideas and views always move in two directions whether intentionally or not.

Have a nice day.

oreyade · Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 23 Location: japan

dear guest of japan,

Your first post in here was really good. Im surprised no one else in here noted it. I guess everyone was focussing on me too much. Actually, I think its only you and locagrl who can honestly be called "voices of moderation" in here, as three of the other people in here were clearly peppered with some very harsh, personal and base language of their own...

Anyways, you seem to be way ahead of the rest in being able to notice a situation as it is, and its a great sign. By the way, no not at all, I don't take the Malcom X reference negatively since, as you passingly mentioned, that type of rhetorical approach is an excellent way to get a discussion going on things which quite frankly are never talked about openly for various reasons: shyness, discomfort, ignorance, or even indifference. And its a chance to set the record straight on Asian experiences in Asia.

Nagoyaguy · Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: Aichi, Japan

Oreyade;

It seems like you took a few too many classes in Self Victimization Studies during your time at Whinging Liberal University. I haven't heard such good stuff in a long time. Keep it up!

Do you really feel so inferior? Constantly referring to 'little black haired people', and 'white colonials'. All your talk about Asian identity is crap. There is NO 'Asian identity'. Any more than there is a 'European identity', or 'African identity'. Come out into the sunshine, where people treat each other as people rather than labels or collected groups of facial features and hair.

People's experiences are just that, people's experiences. By attempting to label them you are guilty of the same sin as you are attempting to expose. The Us vs. Them mentality. IMHO, people are a little too strong to be easily swayed by media expectations ad societal pressure. Please remove the myopic glasses that colour every experience with social and cultural baggage and treat people as they are, not as they appear.

guest of Japan · Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1601 Location: Japan

I'd love to pipe in a lot more, but I'm going on vacation for 3 weeks, so this discussion will have to carry on without me.

Oreyade, I think your argument might carry more weight if you substituted imperialism for colonialism when dealing with countries such as Japan, Korea and China.

This is truly an interesting debate. Many facets have yet to be unearthed in this discussion, but alas I'm leaving on a jet plane.

Also, Oreyade, although I think your view has a lot of value, you were unreasonable in your discourse with PaulH and Glenski.

Enjoy your discussion. I look forward to seeing how it tangents in the future.
Mark

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan

As for me,

I will only repond when Oreyade learns how to answer the question i,e how do Asian-Americans and Asian-Canadians getting teaching jobs in Japan by Japanese employers, rather than respond a soapbox tirade of hot air from an aggrieved and bitter person with a massive chip on his shoulder.

Looks like Oreyade will have to talk to himself from now on. Glenski and I have better things to do.

cafebleu · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404

After reading your recent posts I feel even more sorry for you, Oreyade. You are such a bitter person from the evidence posted here and I think your bilious outpourings tell me you have deep problems with your racial identity. Sad but it is not going to draw much sympathy as your tunnel vision postings seem intent on attacking people of goodwill on this forum.

You may be interested to know, stereotyping English speakers and white people as you do, that I am not from a British background. As such I advise you to do some research on European colonialism in the world and you will find (although you probably won`t - as you have proved your aversion to facts that exist but you fight against acknowledging them) that the French, Germans, Portugese, Spanish have in some cases a worse track record than the English, who at least put some trade and industrial infrastructure in place in the countries that they colonised as well as in some cases democratic governance, a free press etc. Unlike the Japanese who gutted the countries they invaded and committed genocide in countries such as China.

Your postings, too, cannot be taken seriously when they blame those terrible English speakers for Asian racism, particularly that of the Japanese. Please - you border on the pathetic when you say this. Asian countries have traditionally been far more racist and closed to outsiders who look different, something that persists today and something that any number of Asians such as Japanese would not deny.

Japan`s campaign in Asia was based on the premise that Japan`s destiny was to enslave the inferior races in Asia - and notions of Japanese racial purity and superiority go back a long, long way in Japan. I am not going to quote you the relevant texts by the Japanese themselves because you can stop making your lazy assertions if you want and go seek them out yourself. But racism has a long, long history in Asia and Japan`s modernisation during the Meiji was simply making use of western technology to put long-held ideas into practice.

Ask the Chinese how they feel about the nasty white English and they will tell you that what the English did in China was appalling but nevertheless it is accepted as historical fact by the English and other western cultures. Ask them about the genocidal slaughter of women, men, teenagers and children as well as Chinese prisoners of war, and they will tell you they cannot begin to express how angry they are that Japan even today refuses to put the truth in its history books, university and school texts, not to mention newspapers. Official Japanese racism at its worst.

Maybe you need to work out your issues with your racial identity but I for one will make this my last post on the matter as I don`t think eslcafe is here to be your unpaid therapist.

oreyade · Joined: 16 Jul 2003 Posts: 23 Location: japan

Thanks guest of japan for your perspective on things. I think there are some points you need to iron out, but I think your heart is in the right place. Well, I'm hanging up my boxing gloves on this particular thread. I've got a job to do, and I've already answered the original thread question clearly, ever since my first post... And guest of japan... please remember... while it is ABSOLUTE fact that Asians experience real racism and White discrimination, I'm also not Asian and you aren't White either... (^_^) v Best of luck in life....

----------------
Everyone, even the open-minded non-Asians in here who I know are against all colonialisms too. Read this direct unaltered quote from cafebleu.

It is a frightening example of someone who is clearly an apologist for Anglo colonialism. What do I mean by an "apologist"? Well it is someone who is saying something like: "Hey you noisy liberals are overexaggerting it, English-Western imperialism wasn't bad. We civilized, uplifted and helped all those misguided non-White people, helped them see the light of Western culture and civilization." That is my flowery paraphrasing, but please read cafebleu's own clear blunt words:

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

I apologize to all who may read this rather lengthy message. I just felt something had to be said. I will mention names of other posters in this message, but I hope you can all see that it is not meant in any negative way towards you. It is done only to make a point about oreyade's method of discussion.

Point 1.
I call oreyade's first posting on this thread harsh and I'm attacked and labeled an anti-Asian (despite the fact that I am married to a Japanese).

cafebleu calls him harsh and is thereafter attacked similarly.

However, when locagirl814 (an Asia-American) uses that exact same word "harsh", she is labeled a "voice of moderation".

Point 2.
Paul and I refer to the 1960's and to Malcolm X in particular as a method similar to oreyade's for expressing himself here (a method that irritates and frustrates us), and we are attacked in some strange tangent (as if we said oreyade advocated violence, which we didn't).

Guest of Japan does the same thing (yet even makes a remark about the present issues not being the same), and he is thanked. (If you remember, when oreyade responded to my remark about the 60's, oreyade went off on some tangent which he justified almost as if he felt he was reading my mind. He was way off my true thoughts, of course.)

meteoreo · Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 8 Location: Oregon

This thread has been useful. I'm glad it wasn't closed.

I am not going to defend oreyade's methods of argument. They are indeed Malcom-X like which I think is fine and actually good sometimes as long as we take it for what it is. In a general sense, I gather from him that there indeed does exist bias against those from Asian backgrounds when seeking eikaiwa work. Oreyade wants to make it clear we shouldn't gloss over the fact that hard work and professional experience alone is all these language schools are looking for. I think we can all agree oreyade's main point is valid, no matter what degree we may decide.

Glenski and Paul have valid points, as do other posters. They are rational posters and have contributed a lot to this forum. Hard work and experience do count for an awful lot.

I myself am Asian-American and have indeed experienced bias in my own country and will probably experience it again in Japan. But like others of Asian ancestry in this forum, I am optimistic and rely on my professional competence to ensure I'll find work no matter the circumstances. But I always know in the back of my mind that race plays a factor in so many things in everyday life, for Asians and blacks and jews and others.

Again, this has been a useful thread.

PAULH · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 4672 Location: Western Japan