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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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 Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, one interesting aspect of the RC world (worldwide) is that drinking (even just having a beer) is absolutely out of the question. Alcohol and 10-30lb flying models traveling at up to 200mph (and spinning propellers at 12,000RPMs) is not a good mix. This may be one of the few environments where Japanese guys hang out casual together WITHOUT drinking.
Of course they don't break down into details of their family lives either but then who wouldn't want to talk about comparative four stroke engine performance and Clark Y airfoils!  |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| And, again, I didn't say drinking was the only way. But it's a really really important part of how social connections are made. It's more about creating a designated socializing time where you can losen up than about the alcohol itself. |
There are plenty of other ways, as others (and I) have suggested on this thread. Drinking is simply the way that works best and easiest for you. |
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Jazz1975
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 301
Location: Zama, Kanagawa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| abufletcher wrote: |
| BTW, one interesting aspect of the RC world (worldwide) is that drinking (even just having a beer) is absolutely out of the question. Alcohol and 10-30lb flying models traveling at up to 200mph (and spinning propellers at 12,000RPMs) is not a good mix. This may be one of the few environments where Japanese guys hang out casual together WITHOUT drinking. |
It's the same thing with salsa. While drinking does take place, it is not usually done to excess (in other words, the people who do get drunk are in the minority). This is an ongoing issue the bar has to deal with on designated salsa nights-not making enough profit. Plus, it'd be hard to do some of the turn patterns, esp. the ones that involved spinning if you were drinking. Believe me, I tried it once-on an empty stomach  . I don't know if the same holds true in Japan, but time will tell. |
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Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: |
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drinking is the social lubricant in Japan.
That is the culture.
It is a good way to meet people, and especially to get to know your co-workers better and find out more about things at your place of work.
In fact, at enkais you can get to know things you wouldn`t know otherwise.
Unfortunately, some teachers drink too much, and want you to drink as much as them. You have to draw the line somewhere. For me that means no sake and no wine.
Smoking is also another way to talk to people and to get to know them better, and to find out about things that affect you at your job, but it seems that more people drink alcohol than smoke.
I think fewer Japanese are smoking than before. |
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abufletcher
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 779
Location: Shikoku Japan (for now)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| It's more about creating a designated socializing time where you can losen up than about the alcohol itself. |
I agree completely. In these situations drinking (alcohol) provides for "plausable denial" or a culturally acceptable excuse for doing and saying things that might not otherwise be socially sanctioned. People don't actually need to be drunk, just to have the possible pretense of being "a little tipsy." I saw this same phenomenon in Yemen during the daily mid-afternoon qat-chewing breaks. People would get all "mellow" virtually seconds after stuffing the first wad of leaves into their cheek. No chemical could possibly have had such a speedy effect. It was more a matter of this was the way that qat was supposed to make you feel and so everyone settled right into feeling that way.
Anyway, getting back to the (way) origianl topic, I don't think Japanese universities are particularly social sorts of places. I don't believe I've ever seen my colleagues just drop by one another's office for a chat and doors are NEVER open. I've had a few late night hallway chats with another guy who was also finishing up his Ph.D. and so we shared a certain common deadline pressure but things rarely (if ever) went beyond the boundaries of work. |
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fion
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 69
Location: tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Like a Rolling Stone"]I tried to learn shogi. Lots of Japanese people get very impresed if you can play it. If you're coworkers are older then they might like that too. ]
rolling stone speaks the truth. I've been playing shogi for a year and a half and it gets me a long way with older guys
(not women so much), small local bars, and generally the type of Japanese who don't speak English. Cheaper than going to the gym and not so difficult as learning Japanese! Rolling stone, you ever go to the shogi kaikan in Sendagaya?
Sorry I don't think I did the 'quote' thing right |
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ndorfn
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: |
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sorry if I'm repeating anything written in the last 3 pages, but short answer to the OP, "Yes", I know what you mean.
The suffocating incestuousness of those eikaiwa days somehow seem better in light of these days. especially bad if you don't live near a big city. |
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Eva Pilot
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 351
Location: Far West of the Far East
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Will I get on at all in Japan as a strict NON drinker, as in no alcohol has ever passed my lips?
I seem to be able to interact with people, on a train here in Australia I had a 20 minute conversation about puroresu with a Japanese tourist who spoke only marginal English.
If I can make a friend like that here, surely I'll be able to make friends in Japan?
Is alcohol that necessary for connecting with people in Japan? If so, I'm in trouble. |
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Zzonkmiles
Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Eva Pilot wrote: |
Will I get on at all in Japan as a strict NON drinker, as in no alcohol has ever passed my lips?
Is alcohol that necessary for connecting with people in Japan? If so, I'm in trouble. |
Listen, I do NOT recommend Japan to any of the following types of people:
1. Strong feminists
2. Vegetarians
3. People who are easily offended by cigarette smoke
4. Staunch non-drinkers
Granted, people in all four of these categories can survive here, but there are simply some elements of Japan that are so firmly entrenched in the society here that it is sometimes too difficult to have your needs accommodated all the time. And it really restricts your options regarding what all you can do here as well.
Japan is the land of rape porn, salarymen jerking off over schoolgirls on the train, and porn flyers stuffed into your mailbox; the land where meat (and fish) are part of almost every food item; restaurants that often have no non-smoking areas (and lots of cigarette vending machines); and beer vending machines and nomikais (coupled with being invited to "try some Japanese sake" and not being able to refuse because of the social pressure).
I'm not trying to discourage you, but please know what you're potentially getting into. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Zzonkmiles wrote: |
Listen, I do NOT recommend Japan to any of the following types of people:
1. Strong feminists
2. Vegetarians
3. People who are easily offended by cigarette smoke
4. Staunch non-drinkers
I'm not trying to discourage you, but please know what you're potentially getting into. |
From my own personal experiences in Japan over a few decades, I strongly disagree. Eva Pilot, you sound like you have the qualities to get on in Japan. You'll find your niche, your own comfort zone, and your own way of handling things. Trust me.  |
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chinagirl
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 235
Location: United States
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: you'll be fine |
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Anyone in the abovementioned catagories can stick to their personal principles and be fine in Japan as long as they are flexible about living with the practices of others, and being a reasonable observer. As long as you're not the preachy type...
CG
feminist, vegetarian, nonsmoker and nondrinker |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:02 am Post subject: |
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alcohol here is a social lubricant for after work drinking parties, an excuse to get drunk at weddings. It is possible to be a teetotaller and no need to justify yourself to anyone as to why you dont drink. Just say you have a medical disposition that makes you react to alcohol and stick to tea or orange juice. People may offer you beer but you can politely refuse.
Raging feminists I agree may have a hard time when they see the docility of Japanese office ladies and housewives, the chauvinism of Japanese men etc but they forget that many women here also control the purse strings and family budgets, and have much more personal freedom to do what they want than most men do. Women simply choose not be like salarimen in a skirt and do overtime and long hours and after work drinking. |
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6810
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Zzonkmiles wrote: |
| Eva Pilot wrote: |
Will I get on at all in Japan as a strict NON drinker, as in no alcohol has ever passed my lips?
Is alcohol that necessary for connecting with people in Japan? If so, I'm in trouble. |
Listen, I do NOT recommend Japan to any of the following types of people:
1. Strong feminists
2. Vegetarians
3. People who are easily offended by cigarette smoke
4. Staunch non-drinkers
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Ok, here you have me, another vegetarian, non-smoker and non-drinker with a lot of sympathy for feminists... I've done about three years in Japan so far, no trouble, no irreconcilable difficulties or anything...
I think the biggest problem is to do with self esteem (as much as I dislike the concept) and independence. If one is always seeking acceptance and belonging, is unhappy about one's on life and way of living, is constantly comparing etc - this kind of attitude and person, regardless of living habits will find it tough in Japan.
Remember, when you come to Japan, if you don't already have friends here and don't speak Japanese and you don't perform the same social functions as everyone else (binge drinking) you will find yourself socially isolated.
But, if you are committed to learning Japanese, make Japanese friends, get involved in the local community you ought to have no trouble.
The key thing is that you are starting from scratch with your life - I know people who do all the right things to fit in and there are as many ar.se.hol.es and decent people, similarly, there are as many "normal" people who "can't hack it" and go home as those who stay.
It's case by case, really.
Ciao!  |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Eva Pilot wrote: |
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If I can make a friend like that here, surely I'll be able to make friends in Japan?
. |
This is probably the subject for another thread, but the idea of what you mean by a friend and what a Japanese means by a friend will be two completely different things.
Sure you will have plenty of people to talk with and socialise with. People to go out with to an izakaya or a karaoke bar or go bowling. As has been pointed out above, your social circle will be defined by those people with whom you can speak in the same language. Maybe peopele you live with or have the same interests.
By and large, it will be other native speakers at work and probably your students who may want to speak English with you or want to socialise with foreigners. Outside of you Japanese have a whole social network of friends, family relatives, work mates, sports buddies, drinking partners, clients. I go to weddings here where there are upwards of 120 people at the ceremony, all who just turn up for 2 people. A majority of Japanese will not go out of their way and be 'friends'(as you understand the term to mean) if they can not even communicate with you. Japanese will not really try and labor through a conversation with you in Japanese if you can not speak the language and the medium will be English or nothing. A lot of guys on here ask about how to date Japanese women but 99% do not speak English so I dont know how they expect to build a relationship when they can not even communicate basic needs and wants in a common language. Relationships even tend to be rather superficial, and there is a kind of 'exoticness' about having a partner from a different social and ethnic background. It is not really the same as a bicultural relationship back home as back home both are bicultural and bilingual, but here the main language is Japanese, and you are an ethnic minority who only speaks English, a foreign language here.
The onus is on you to learn the language, develop social networks and simply not expect everyone to drop everything so they can entertain you. Join clubs, get involved, be proactive and people will gravitate to you. You can not fail to meet people if you get out and about and not sit at home and wait for the phone to ring.
As Abu says, it can get quite lonely if you are not a proactive person, and you dont speak the language well. Most foreigners here are transient in their jobs, you might be working with them and next month they are gone. 'Friends' tend to be here, today and gone tomorrow, and it can be quite hard when you invest a lot of time in a friendship and the person pulls up roots and leaves japan. Thats why i think relationships here between Japanese and foreigners tend to be very superficial, unless you indicate you plan to be here for the long haul.
Most of the regular 'friendships' I have developed funnily enough have been with other posters on Daves and on Gaijinpot, though i have real life friends as well. Most people I know I do not see for months at a time or except through work or JALT or the union etc
Friends here in my experience are not the same as your close friends back home, and there is an invisible line that separates real friends and mere drinking buddies and work acquaintances among Japanese and many foreigners you come into contact with. the only person I see regularly outside work is my wife, and I socialise with workmates because I speak the language to a fairly proficient level.
You may be starved for real company, even feel lonely and possibly even become friends with people you probably wouldnt even consider socialising with at home, simply because they speak English and you have a 'common ' experience of living in a foreign country as an expat.
Necessity becomes the mother of invention I suppose they say. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:59 am Post subject: |
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And another one- I'm a vegetarian, I hate cigarette smoke and I drink a tiny glass of wine about once a month, I'm probably a feminist as well, and I've been here 8 years and like it- there are some aspects of the culture here that bug me, sure, but generally I enjoy my life, and nowhere's perfect!
The reason I'm not "socially isolated" by the above points is that most of my friends are the same- we are mostly yoga teachers and students, Japanese and international, and don't spend a lot of time in bars and izakayas since we get up at 5.30am to practice yoga, 5-6 days a week. When we go out together we have breakfast after practice or go to one of the many Indian or vegetarian restaurants in Tokyo, or someone's house. This lifestyle isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it's one of many possible lifestyles in Japan.
Not everyone has the same "Japan experience". I used to be an English teacher and drink more, and I knew people who didn't drink but would go out with us anyway- there are Japanese who completely lack that alcohol processing enzyme and just a couple of drinks will send them to hospital, and of course Japanese and foreigners who don't like drinking for whatever reason- they would drink oolong tea or coke or whatever and just come along to socialise, so Eva, you wouldn't necessarily be the only one.
While for many people the social life revolves around the izakayas etc, it doesn't have to, so don't be discouraged, there are plenty of ways to meet people here and socialise other than in bars. |
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