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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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 Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| Now when I read this on buxiban I kind of get the idea that money is involved in this site. |
Of course there is money involved that is quite obvious and is not hidden. Someone has to pay for the costs of hosting the site and storing the huge amount of information in the database. We allow schools to become members to pay for that. This has been asked and discussed on this board before so I will leave it at that.
What you are insinuating of course is that this creates a bias. You are wrong and you are making a sorely misinformed judgement here. However I invite you to show any evidence that a school that is listed on our site has been treated favorably based upon monetary benefit. Come on vikdk. If you feel so strongly about this and believe that you are right then show us all what you have got to support these insinuations.
| vikdk wrote: |
| I can also understand the registration thing better, because theoreticaly you can use this data to advertise the size of your user base to would be advertisers - maybe fortunes arn't being made but come on Clark a wee bit of cash is involved here and there!!!! |
Vikdk it is quite clear that you develop an opinion about someting and then set about fishing for something, anything, to support your claims which to me is a rather foolish way of doing things. You have obviously mae up your mind on this and you are of course entitled to your opinion - but that doesn't make you right. Take that for what you will.
| vikdk wrote: |
By the way how much did EF pay for their banner  |
You could always contact them and find out - I think that you might be disappointed however!
Tell me something vikdk, why shouldn't EF maintain a banner on that site? To my knowledge they do not rip off teachers, so what information do you have that supports your suggestion that they should not be promoted. |
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Paul Barufaldi
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
Tell me something vikdk, why shouldn't EF maintain a banner on that site? To my knowledge they do not rip off teachers, so what information do you have that supports your suggestion that they should not be promoted.
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I registered at and browsed buxiban.com: I think it's great to have resources like this available. But I'll be honest, when I saw the EF banner, I immediately doubted the impartiality of the site. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Cheers Paul, so it aint just me that has that nagging doubt - actualy the kind of money generated by a site like buxiban isn't very big - but by Chinese standards a local here could make a site like this it into a nice little earner if they could get the co-operation of somebody fluent in English to help compile the written content and advertise the site by posting on other sites - and that all important user data base would also be usefull to attract the advertisers. However best not to make those big clients unhappy by writing anything too nasty 
of course I'd never dream of saying buxiban would operate in this manner
Last edited by vikdk on Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Paul Barufaldi
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| However best not to make those big clients unhappy by writing anything too nasty |
I'm not accusing Clark of anything here. But let's face it, money has been known to affect people's objectivity. It could make one tend to favor positive comments of said client and more likely to dimiss or minimize negative accounts. For example, if someone were to give me $500 to change my position on this issue, you and I might find ourselves at odds rather than in agreement. 
Now, again, I'm not saying this is the case with Clark and his very well organized website, but he must understand how people might view things this way.
Last edited by Paul Barufaldi on Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:23 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| hey send me 5RMB and Ill start putting those buxiban links at the bottom of my posts |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Paul Barufaldi wrote: |
| I'm not accusing Clark of anything here. But let's face it, money has been known to affect people's objectivity. It could make one tend to favor positive comments of said client and more likely to dimiss or minimize negative accounts. For example, if someone were to give me $500 to change my position on this issue, you and I might find ourselves at odds rather than in agreement. |
I appreciate the care that you have taken in the wording of your post Paul. Of course I do not disagree with the possibilities here as it is amazing what money can do in some cases. I also accept your point that it could happen. But just because it could happen does not mean that it does happen. It is a site set up by teachers for teachers and I suspect that there is an element of jealousy among the naysayers that someone has actually gotten up and done something that it has been suggested for years should be done.
Now the issue of whether school payments can inflence ratings would seem to be a case of my word against others unless of course there was some proof that either:
a) a school had paid for a favorable rating; or
b) a school confessed that it had been knocked back for paid membership based upon its poor reputation.
I know that there is no proof of a) as I am involved with the site, whereas the people who claim that there is a bias have no knowledge of the site other than their suspicions. I have welcomed them to provide proof that schools can pay to get favorable ratings or that paid memberships biases our rating of these schools but as expected they have never produced anything to support these claims. They can't as such evidence does not exist because this does not happen.
So this leaves us with b). How can we prove that we only allow schools with good reputations to suport our site? Well have a look at this thread on another forum. It is quite a lengthy discussion but basically it involves a complaint by a recruitment company with a somewhat bad reputation in Taiwan and whose offer of paid membership we knocked back until they improved their performance.
So we have no proof anywhere that buxiban accepts payments from schools that rip teachers off, but we are clearly on record for knocking back offers of payments from schools or recruiters that we don't believe act in the best interests of teachers. This is just one case on the public record but there are other cases that have gone on privately.
Clearly those who would like everyone to believe that something untoward is going on are the very same people that I have disagreed with on this forum in the past. They allow their personal grudges to cloud their judgement. The fact that they are willing to post such tripe as an attempt at revenge really calls into question their opinons and posts on other threads in my opinion. Facts are not important to these people - cheap shots is the name of their game!
Now I hope that in the absence of any evidence to support their claims and insinuations that these people will do the right thing and accept that buxiban is indeed what it claims to be - a site compiled by teachers for teachers. I think that it would be unfortunate if we could no longer ask respectable schools to support the costs of our site as in their absence the teachers would be the ones who would have to wear the costs - and that would be a shame. |
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KES
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 722
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:07 am Post subject: |
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I saw a Nike banner on a site one time.
But I didn't infer the site was involved with sweatshops, or might alter its behavior because of the banner ad.
'nuff said on that.
Anyway, I'm waiting to see that challenge of Clark's answered.
Where's that list of EF alternatives?
<crickets chirping> |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| a site compiled by teachers for teachers |
well all those reports on schools must be from teachers - but is it teachers that actually run the site - who are you and your band of buxiban cronnies Clark - you all teachers, how many of you are there, what kind of schools you work for, I see a long time ago on the Taiwan Forum you wrote you were a DOS - you still a DOS. Telling us who the controllers of buxiban are may help salvage the credibillity of this site in some peoples eyes
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| Where's that list of EF alternatives? |
hey Kes if you don't work for EF then give us the name of your school - if you're happy there then we could make that alternative number 1 |
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Paul Barufaldi
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| KES wrote: |
I saw a Nike banner on a site one time.
But I didn't infer the site was involved with sweatshops, or might alter its behavior because of the banner ad.
'nuff said on that.
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Not quite 'nuff, actually. I would imagine you can see the gaping flaw in your own argument. If not, let me ask: did the Nike banner appear on a site that claimed to give objective comparisons and rankings to different brands of sports shoes? |
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Paul Barufaldi
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
Now the issue of whether school payments can inflence ratings would seem to be a case of my word against others unless of course there was some proof that either:
a) a school had paid for a favorable rating; or
b) a school confessed that it had been knocked back for paid membership based upon its poor reputation.
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I noted that two of the EF schools on your site recieved 2 star (sub-par) ranking, most were at three stars (average or no ranking), along with several 4 stars.
Obviously, if you had granted all the EF schools 4-5 stars, we'd know something was amiss. I've read more complaints about EF over the years than any other school. So that would be too blatent.
I do know that if I owned a school and paid your site money, I'd expect some support, at least hope that you'd tilt things in my favor. At the very least I'd withdraw my sponsorship if their was too much negative treatment, be it true or not. Of course, there's no way to prove that kind of thing, and I don't know that it's true in your case -but, even as someone who holds no particular axe to grind against the EF franchise, I can't help but wonder.
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
I have welcomed them to provide proof that schools can pay to get favorable ratings or that paid memberships biases our rating of these schools but as expected they have never produced anything to support these claims. They can't as such evidence does not exist because this does not happen.
So this leaves us with b). How can we prove that we only allow schools with good reputations to suport our site?
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Does EF really have a such a great reputation? Not by what reaches my ear. Now I realize different schools/different circumstances, we can't paint them all by the same brush, etc, etc. But by the same token, I don't think its fair to endorse the organization as a whole based on favorable reports for only a select group of schools in the system -which is exactly what anyone who calls EF an organization with a "good reputation" is doing.
I'm guessing your rankings don't account for salary or conditions? I mean shared accommodation would only be suitable for the 18-22 year old crowd. It would be strike to the dignity of anyone even approaching 30. So, even though an EF job could serve as a starting point for the fesh college graduate, it's certainly not a standard worthy of promoting. 40 hours @ 5,000?? I only imagine how much the schools are raking in on that deal. I mean we can't control what employers offer, or what some FTs might be willing to accept, but we can control who we post banners for on websites.
Now regarding whether or not it affects your objectivity, you're quite right, no one can prove it either way. I do like your site and applaud your efforts -but am I little suspicious? Of course. But without knowing how much EF is paying you, I can't really make a judgement here.
It's a shame you couldn't find some other types of sponsors. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: |
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He thinks he's so hot, but he's not so great. I'll show him a thing or two.
It takes talent, energy, and initiative to build something up. This arouses the jealousy of those who don't have those qualities and causes them to want to tear down what others have made because it damages their self-esteem. So, rather than critiquing the quality or impartiality of someone's site, why not use the time spent here criticizing to create another site that doesn't have the perceived failings of this one? Perhaps because it takes more talent, energy, and initiative than stalking someone from post to post on a personal jihad that does nothing to move the forum forward.
In the little town where I grew up, this attitude was quite common. It's middle-class envy, now often expressed in a neo-hippy distrust of anything commercial, and it's kind of sad. Sooner or later everybody learns this much: Nobody has to respond to your suspicions or defend against your accusations; nobody has to answer your questions; nobody has to prove themselves to you in any way. Why? Because the world doesn't revolve around you and you have no granted authority. Everyone works to promote their own interests. Is some kind of law being broken here that makes one self-deputize and try to effect some kind of citizen's arrest?
RED |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Red have you spotted some type of hippy long hair commie FT who is trying to smash the status-quo out of envy for some internet site
Actually I think there's a few of 'em lurking in the woodpile, but I gotta feelin' they've been sparked off by reading post after post which seemed to have such a heavy pro employer bias that they appeared to vear off from the notion of giving unbiased advice towards that direction more associated with recruiting.
But of course everbody has a right to their opinions |
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Paul Barufaldi
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
. So, rather than critiquing the quality or impartiality of someone's site, why not use the time spent here criticizing to create another site that doesn't have the perceived failings of this one? Perhaps because it takes more talent, energy, and initiative than stalking someone from post to post on a personal jihad that does nothing to move the forum forward.
RED |
I hope this wasn't directed at me.
I only interjected myself into this debate to give my own honest, personal view on the matter. (That's what message boards are for after all) I don't have a stake in this one way or the other. I'm certainly not envious of the website or have any desire to tear down his work or on any kind of jihad -and fully credit him with the talent, energy, and iniative in putting it all together. I just really think a website that objectively ranks the quality of english schools would come across a lot better if it weren't sponsored by them. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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No, Paul, it wasn't. I don't see you following every one of Clark's posts on any topic with some snide remark. I've looked at his site, and it's not so bad. Of course, nothing is perfect or unbiased, but it's another resource people can refer to in a comprehensive job search. FTs can get some info and look for work and they don't have to pay.
So, exactly what site DO FTs support with their cash? None that I know of. So where does the cash to keep a site up come from? Advertising. This site does it and has a disclaimer about the positions offered. Pretty standard fare IMHO. Do advertisers here put pressure on this forum to remove negative posts? What does your research tell you?
I have nothing against someone making a post and saying, "Hey, I think this site promotes an overly pro-school POV and is unduly influenced by advertisers." Opinions are what a forum's all about. But the amount of effort that some put into trying to discredit the site leads me to wonder what the motivation could be. As FTs are generally well-educated and literate types, they should be able to sort the wheat from the chaffe. And if they can't, all the self-appointed crusaders aren't going to be able to save them from themselves.
In the end, I suppose that through these posts Clark's site has gained additional traffic from those who are curious about what all the fuss is about. The ratio of scheming employers and whacko FTs is probably about the same. Personally, I've seen more of the latter than the former. When something is offered for free, it takes a special type to complain about the quality of the goods. I think some folks spend too much time examining the equestrian dental work.
Look in the facts. Do you have a posting speed faster than the firing rate of an AK47 on full auto? Do you desire to rally others to fight website injustice? Are you willing to sacrifice the innocent to get the guilty? Are you willing to blow up your credibility to achieve your goals? Do you have a bit of a fanatical glint in your eye? Does Buxiban.com look like a tool of the Great Satan of EFL schools? Congratulations! You're on a jihad!
RED |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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allakwackbar - my holy beard has started to curl at your cruel words Red infidel.
Brothers I have word that EF Afghanistan is recruiting at the moment - come share a cave with me |
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