Job Discussion Forums

[cj750]

If going with the flow means doing what your paid to do..

this is a job..like any other job..make waves and you get canned..if that is within your realm of acceptable events that can happen to you while enjoying the gracelessness of China..then so be it.....

I recently found out my school was taking taxes out of the pay but never paying them..I went ot the tax office and reported it..and guess what...I will be working at another institution this next year...I wasn't fired but was offered a chance to come back with stipulation that I could never adhere too..so I left...and to my surprise..got a much better deal with a Chinese University. I wasn't willing to go with the flow of being burned by this school and as a result..the school had to undergo an expensive change of personal and cost increased for this already flegeling enterprise..actually another poster offered a posting as to its problems in the Jobs related.
The school has the opinion that I made trouble for them, and they feel they had the right to skim from their employees...which they don't feel is out of the question and it may not be as many foreign teachers have existed under this system for sometime....but I couldn't...

[KES]

VDLK: Thank you for the invitation to comment.

Let�s start with your

[Babala]

Why are people who have never worked at a chain and have no desire to, so obsessed with them I have seen more unqualified teachers at private schools than in training centers. Does it make it you feel superior to look down upon FT's who choose to work these centers?

[vikdk]

[no_exit]

[no_exit]

[vikdk]

No- exit - certain branches of EF may farm - last winter someone was on here telling how an EF branch had farmed out a load of its employees to a winter holiday English camp that had nothing to do with EF - try doing your own research and proove to me that no farming goes on under the EF banner - I've a feeling you'd be supprised what takes place under that EF banner outside kunming - but then again you could always proove me ohhh so wrong

[shuize]

[Malsol]

[no_exit]

I'm sick of the argument anyhow. You guys hate chain schools, full stop. I think that some schools within a chain are exceptions, and that you just have to look at every school on a case by case basis. I think that if you just say "chains are evil, never work for one," you might miss out on some good jobs. You can just as easily (if not moreso) end up working for a total dud of a university or high school. It is not easy to generalize in China, and in doing so I think we all shoot ourselves in the feet sometimes. With the amount of good jobs in this country limited, it would be pretty sad if someone refused what happened to be a nice position (like the one I had at EF Kunming) simply because the chain had gotten trashed on the internet. Of course, that is the price they pay for being part of a chain with a dubious reputation, I do understand that.

I'm not stupid vik, and no matter what you'd like to think, I'm not a backpacker nor am I a bad teacher. I read several of your posts as a direct implication that only backpackers or bad teachers would ever work for an establishment such as EF, as if no real teachers would ever agree to work for such a place. Can you blame me for taking that personally? I tried to enter into this thread with an open mind and simply present the other side of things, but once the mudslinging starts, it all goes downhill.

Just for the record, I have no direct interest in the reputation of any of these schools besides my own (Off topic -- I just started my own place with a Chinese partner, hence my questions previously about books. And if your interested in the answer, I couldn't find a book for younger kids that I liked so I got a friend of mine who is an artist to create an activity packet of sorts with coloring sheets, word puzzles, and stuff like that for them to practice at home, which is all I ever really wanted in the first place). When it moves past trashing schools and on to trashing teachers, that is when it crosses the line, because no one here has any right to say that I or anyone else am the equivalent of a burger flipper, a mill worker, whatever. The holier-than-thou attitude that shines through on these boards never ceases to amaze me, and although it is probably nice to sit up on a high horse and say "I'd never work for one of those places," there are plenty of people who do work for them, and to assume that you're a better teacher than anyone working for a chain is just arrogance in the extreme.

The whole point of the thread was not about who works for chains, and why they suck, but rather it was a discussion of educational institutions that put profit above education. I wanted to point out that profit and education do not have to be mutually exclusive. Profit is not the dirty word that some make it out to be -- afterall, China has a market economy. If EF, or anyone, provides a product that satisfies the market's desires, then they come out ahead. The market is getting wiser, and they aren't falling for the old white monkey routine as much as they used to. I've seen it firsthand.

Taking the EF in Kunming as an example (JUST an example), our parents there would complain when they didn't see actual results. They loved it when the kids brought home artwork covered in English words, they loved seeing their kids be able to sound out words because they'd learned phonics, and most of all they loved seeing their kids get interested in English. It takes pretty good teachers to be able to spark an interest in a foreign language in young children, and EF Kunming constantly looked for teachers who were going to provide something special.

I never said this was typical, but it is an example of a for profit organization realizing that they don't have to cut out quality in order to make a buck. If there are schools out there that realize this, then I am confident that this will be the trend in the future. I think the days of performing monkeys in the EFL world are numbered anyhow, and chains or no chains, schools are going to have to actually produce results if they want to make profits.

[no_exit]

[adamsmith]

Excellent last post No-exit. I could not agree with you more. While I am one of those University types - although I do not teach esl anymore, I am still a teacher (more correctly a lecturer) but I have been in the ESL work previously. I have seen many of the chains or private schools like some of the others describe in other countries and in china and have even worked for some - it was an interesting experience.

But as you point out many of these schools who reduce quality just for the quick profit do not last long - they tend to be pretty fly by night. In countries with a more established ESL network the schools who establish a good reputation early on tend to be around for a long time and continue to make long term profits. Most of the schools who put in the dancing monkey and charge high prices with little or no return tend to last a very short time. Japan was like this years back when everyone got into the esl business, Korea is still like this but is getting better, and I imagine that China will also clean up its act in the near future. I just hope it does not take to long for it to happen.

As for the supiority complex of many of those ESL teachers at university - often it is not so well deserved. As a uni lecturer in business and economics I find it amazing the cavalier attitude that many of the english teaching coworkers have. (note that I said many - I do not mean all). So before you judge someone at a chain school - make sure that you know you are better than them.

[Malsol]

[saint57]

I wonder what Malsol's post count would be after five years at a private language school. I say do it. It's a great idea.

[struelle]

Just want to comment on these: