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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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 Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Denying the obvious - that western schools are now hotbeds of juvenile crime and violence... |
just out of mild curiosity - to gauge where your quote is coming from - Steppenwolf, can you tell us when was was the last time you taught at a Western school - you know in one of those western countries teeming with underprivelleged criminal kids ? If you have never taught at one then just pass this post bye - but if you have, and maybe have experience of special-needs kids who have been in trouble with the law - than we can happily swop experiences 
There is no doubt that in certain schools in socialy deprived areas that crime and violence are an every day occurence (and indeed crime and violence are not totaly absent from any area anywhere - deprived or not) - but to say that these type of schools, and any individual criminal western schoolchild, represent all western schools and school children!!! In fact so many of today's kids are so aware of these kinds of problem, like those associated with violent crime - and are actualy discussing and campaigning against so many other evils - that I could make the following ludicrous wide-sweeping arguement - many of today's western schools have developed into hot-beds of juvenile compassion.
After all How many Chinese school kids do you see trying to save Whales  |
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MITCH
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 58
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Vikdk wrote:
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| If anybody did write something like this in earnest - then in some ways one should also feel sorry for the perpetrator - since anybody brought up within a stable environment of modern progressive social norms and morals (those which I beleive are usualy represented and supported in these forums) surely must think themselves a very small person, when school-children make them feel so disempowered and intimidated, that they have to display their feelings of poor self-esteem through acts of violence. These people are surely not acting out of a feeling of social or professional responsibility, but more likely out of feelings, which could be more closely related to insecurity or even a sickness |
Has the "Commonsense Police" himself been brought up within a stable environment of modern progressive social norms and morals... and what might they be?
Not allowing people to give their opinions; arguing with everyone whose opinion differs from his. Aren't you CP acting out of feelings, insecurity or sickness? Keep arguing with people, and inflaming them and your sickness will be revealed to us all.
Mr Commonsense wrote:
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| since I would be interested in what precentage of people who are educated in Montessori and a mainsteam education background become killers!!! |
Give us a break. The topic of this discussion is Corporal Punishment and not one of your favorite topics murder, crime, or sickness. And the last thing we want to discuss are the morals of your home country. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Has the "Commonsense Police" himself been brought up within a stable environment of modern progressive social norms and morals... and what might they be? |
MITCH - could be something connected with the fact that violence against children isn't regarded as something that exactly helpfull in a healthy pattern of child development. Why shouldn't that be regarded as a norm - even China has laws against corporal punishment of Children.
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since I would be interested in what precentage of people who are educated in Montessori and a mainsteam education background become killers!!!
Give us a break. The topic of this discussion is Corporal Punishment and not one of your favorite topics murder, crime, or sickness. And the last thing we want to discuss are the morals of your home country |
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MITCH - I'm only responding to the first poster who mentioned Montessori here - he wrote
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| I also pop in a chatroom run by a Montessori group; my DOg! the problems they are discussing! This 3-year old is throwing a temper tantrum - and the good Montessorian asks the politically correct question: what have WE done wrong to him? There never is the question: what's wrong with him? Or: what could his parents do to make him manageable! |
but then again your perticular brand of thought-policing only allows free-speech for some. Im all for free-speech MITCH - but advertising corporal punishment as an effective classroom method - try reading some of your own posts - and think how they may influence the classroom actions of others - to realise why I'm against that kind of content being expressed here. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: |
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The following notions as raised by steppenwolf are very interesting discussion matters -
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And the same poster to gloat how he put a Chinese teacher in her station for bodily punishing a kid..."...in front of all teachers..." (sic! No: make that: Sick!)!
And the same poster to come down on FTs who "cause students to lose face" by pointing out their mistakes...
Either you take the same principled stance against (needlessly) shaming people publicly, or you don't come up with your needless, shamefully incoherent advice! |
I personally cannot see any incoherence when I (the poster) defend the victims of poor teaching method - since both cases the quote related to seem to be linked to teaching method that highlights some form of personal defiency in schoolkids which then results in the process of getting students to focus on a classmate in the looser-role. After all doesn't such method sometimes degenerate into finding a victim suitable for public punishment - opening the door for making classroom corporal punishment the norm.
No I'm very principled about this kind of stuff - I dont want to teach my kids to gloat at fellow students as classroom victims - after all that just encourages them to find more victims. But on the other hand I don't mind showing them that their can be justice when they are confronted with a type of violence thay can hardly fight against - and that somebody will stick up for them - even though my crude attemps of being the Kindy Robin Hood are probally completely misunderstood - by everyone. As for them gloating at the teacher as a classroom victim - well that's unfortunate - I just wish they could learn from that unhappy tale that violence often has that end result of encouraging more violence - but at least when reprimanding an adult you may be massaging a bit of grey-matter in that person that will tell them now is the time to stop - at least while the loa wai is around!!! After all isn't it always a good idea to try and stick up for the small and defenceless - in the face of uneeded violence?
But talking of incoherence - what does surprise me in these threads, is that some fine folk realy talk up our role in following the letter of the law - especially in the matters such as work visas - why is it then that these fine people sometimes seem far hazier and laxer on that also illegal practice of corporal punishment in the classroom  Am I being incoherent in these thoughts - am I misunderstanding something - will somebody please put me right |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
talking of incoherence - what does surprise me in these threads, is that some fine folk realy talk up our role in following the letter of the law - especially in the matters such as work visas - why is it then that these fine people sometimes seem far hazier and laxer on that also illegal practice of corporal punishment in the classroom Am I being incoherent in these thoughts - am I misunderstanding something - will somebody please put me right |
Our Danish Viking the Robin Hood of some Kamding kindergarten... he or she who has never shown in this forum any understanding of the principles of live and let live; he or she who in his or her conceit believes that only Vikdk knows the correct pedagogy. Vikdk who, without knowing certain posters leaves no occasion to assault them, mixing imaginary truths he or she gathers from the rumour grapevine with his or her vivid imagination...just to mock someone.
It is judgemental people like you, vikdk, that need explaining their attitudes; I have not derided your "principles" per se but the selective character of your virtuosity!
Look at your flawed logic: we as outsiders are expected to know the "laws" that, you said, ban the use of physical punishment in a Chinese classroom - yet you have made no secret of your own pecuniary greed in the pursuit of your own material happiness - by making money even without obeying the law relating to foreigners working in China. You are one hell of a fine role model for your "English learners"!
And it comes as no surprise that our doctor from the Andersen Fairy Tale Kindergarten Pedagogical Academy in Arhus finds it necessary to twist my statements to suit his bigoted and biased opinion on others in this forum such as my statement about our position as FTs in a Chinese setting: I have NEVER said it is RIGHT for Chinese teachers to use violence against their pupils - please, if you can't read my posts refrain from posting yourself! Your grand-standing smacks of calumnying or lieing!
I said, and I repeat it for everybody who might still be following this unnecessary feuding you started - the Chinese aren't in the psycho-pedagogical area where we Westerners are. COrporeal punishment is still widely regarded as JUSTIFIABLE, law or no law; in fact Chinese parents are known to discipline their own child quite ruthlessly, mercilessly, and no one has the right to step in and protect the child because he or she is regarded by the community as the parents' "property".
I have never said I share this attitude; what I do say, and I stand by what I said, is that we in the West have come a long way towards anarchy in our schools, a problem the CHinese are light years away from experiencing.
Do I need to furnish "proof" to satisfy your curiosity?
I think you can collect your own data on this issue; suffice it to say that I have before me a French magazine, "Le Point" from August this year, and it has a story about a woman teacher aged 29 who had a run-in with one of her male, 16-year old students... She ended up in hospital, then was released and deployed to another post where she has to see no students...just so the students don't have to mend their wicked ways! IT's a sign that today's education officialdom no longer is capable of dealing with the unruly elements that make up to a large degree their clientele; and don't get me wrong - this report comes from France where students don't have access to guns... though many come with swtichblade knives. Yes, a lot of the troublemakers are immigrant children but let's not blame any ethnic group alone.
You on the other hand have gone the same trodden path of blaiming "society" and how much "society" fails their under-age citizens.
May I remind you that in the U.S.A. schools practise "democracy" in classrooms to an admiring degree, empowering students to have a say in matters over which their parents had no say.
In China there is no "democracy" and kids simply obey their parents; there is no apprenticeship in the mechanisms of the exercise of power except that parents often exert pressure on teachers - to privilege their own child over the rest of the class.
In the U.S.A. there are schools where riots make headlines and murders are committed by students; in China you seldom get to read such news; what you do read or hear about is - student suicides.
ANd in the U.S.A. many schools have had to set up drug detection systems to screen out drug pushers - you don't have that in China.
I empathise much more with Chinese teachers than with those spoilt brats! IT's not that the spoilt brats love their parents and their school - but they quickly learn to pull the strings to their own advantages.
It should not surprise anyone that Chinese kids suffer from what we all might call - 'burn-out'. They are tired of school, and who would they like to blame?
The teachers, you guessed it! Not their parents, and not themselves.
Hence they often act out of their character as "good" school kids!
Their parents would never believe what their dear little Johnny or Joanna is capable of doing.
I say it once more: I do not think Chinese teachers should mete out violent justice. But if they do, they may have their community's approval.
Then again, they may not. Is that my problem? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I say it once more: I do not think Chinese teachers should mete out violent justice. But if they do, they may have their community's approval. |
thank you steppenwolf for your fine post it has realy made me think, I am an idiot trying to root out violence in the chinese classroom - what a pointless occupation when fine a scientific journals like "le point" shows me the errors of my ways - ohh that article has made me think that all that reported violence surely must be breading itself into an ugly social manifestation even in my very own Kindergartens classroom. I tell you after those hols, stiff upper lip and the ruller will be my classroom tools to fight the young hooligans!!! You are right Steppenwolf - why blame society - since surely we must be born evil - and if we dont act now that rot will surely spread!!! You know some other poster was facetious enough to PM me and tell me to press you after real scientific fact that could support your western schools are hotbeds of crime theory - he even told me to ask once again about your actual experience in these establishments and told me to counter each report you could produce of school crime with an account of school Charity - but I said no - I now have new goal at hand - something that surely represents the true work of the rightous FT - that of stamping out an evil that realy does matter. So to hell with my campaign against corporal punishment - since all those children's sobs, schreeches, tears and feelings of fear and depression are something that surely lead to a healthy robust well-disciplined society.
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| ive me a long wooden ruler, a child's knuckles and 5 minutes alone. Language won't matter; he will understand exactly what will happen next time he pulls the same stunt |
In the furture I must learn to live with the above sentiment, and join hands with those Good FT's in getting the real evil doers - those despicable FT's who are working on illegal visas - now they realy are a danger to chinese school-children (where is the standing stiff to attention, saluting emoticon?????) |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
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| I say it once more: I do not think Chinese teachers should mete out violent justice. But if they do, they may have their community's approval. |
thank you steppenwolf for your fine post it has realy made me think, I am an idiot trying to root out violence in the chinese classroom - what a pointless occupation when fine a scientific journals like "le point" shows me the errors of my ways - ohh that article has made me think that all that reported violence surely must be breading itself into an ugly social manifestation even in my very own Kindergartens classroom. I tell you after those hols, stiff upper lip and the ruller will be my classroom tools to fight the young hooligans!!! You are right Steppenwolf - why blame society - since surely we must be born evil - and if we dont act now that rot will surely spread!!! You know some other poster was facetious enough to PM me and |
Thanks for your growing self-awareness and realising that you are an "idiot" trying to "root out violence in the Chinese classroom..." You, a foreigner trying to root out that which the Chinese can't see while you, again you, demand that I support my claim of the existence of violence in WESTERN classrooms with "SCIENTIFIC DATA"... Are you, perchance, a case of seeing the speck in the eye of a Chinese while ignoring the lump in your own eye? This arrogant belief that you as a Westerner have a mission in a Chinese environment that no local can do as efficiently as yourself...is stunning!
Enough said! I just want to add, though, that social engineering such as that which you want to prescribe for others has failed hundreds of times in the past! The Chinese have no punk, skinhead and hooligan generation though they have their own share of social dislocations. If you understand what ails the CHinese society you may proffer your help - but I doubt you understand this society enough.
You show that you don't even understand what really ails WESTERN society. You are reasoning like the good old '68 student rebels: everything is the old generation's fault! No - everything is Society's fault!
What you fail to understand is that the parents have a bigger role to play in the upbringing of their progeny than school has. Each child is an individual and is made what they are by their own parents, mainly. You can't delegate the duty of correcting their antiscoail behaviors to a largely anonymous organism such as a school.
In my opinion, parents fail most of the time when children display problematic behavoral traits. And this is no less ture here in China as it is in Denmark or France or Canada! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| This arrogant belief that you as a Westerner have a mission in a Chinese environment that no local can do as efficiently as yourself...is stunning! |
again a wonderful post Steppenwolf - I should realy stand back and make it my mission to learn from the techniques of the local masters. Of course we can as life's students learn from everything - good or bad - but can you tell us what positive classroom methods you have learnt from chinese staff.
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| while you, again you, demand that I support my claim of the existence of violence in WESTERN classrooms with "SCIENTIFIC DATA |
yes this is so stupid - after all everybody should understand that very specific term western classroom - why should we try and pin trends down to more well definable factors. You know some of those soft liberal bleeding-heart types - just to cover their asses - would mention all sorts of krap like crime hot-spots, race issues, social deprevation etc, etc ad-infinitum - no what we need is a dose of that good ol' moral fibre injected into the diet of all those namby-pamby school-kids who think they can talk out of turn. By the way that's a good idea to keep stum on yur own experiences in these western classrooms - since we can always go for that argument that the commentator who speaking from a distance comes over with far more impartial credibility that someone who has had actual experience
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| Enough said! I just want to add, though, that social engineering such as that which you want to prescribe for others has failed hundreds of times in the past! The Chinese have no punk, skinhead and hooligan generation though they have their own share of social dislocations. |
yes enough said - thank goodness that those nasty western gangs never got here - no blight on recent chinese history to compair with the problems these folk and their afterfollowers have caused
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| You show that you don't even understand what really ails WESTERN society. You are reasoning like the good old '68 student rebels: everything is the old generation's fault! No - everything is Society's fault |
Dear steppen wolf you now must also be carefull of incoherence - since how do you relate with what you have written above (No - everything is societies fault -is that you saying that or one of the 68'ers?) with what you wrote in another post -
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| You on the other hand have gone the same trodden path of blaiming "society" and how much "society" fails their under-age citizens |
some of your bleeding heart critics may well jump on this - and say they are getting confused - but don't worry I do believe you have saved yourself with-
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What you fail to understand is that the parents have a bigger role to play in the upbringing of their progeny than school has. Each child is an individual and is made what they are by their own parents, mainly. You can't delegate the duty of correcting their antiscoail behaviors to a largely anonymous organism such as a school.
In my opinion, parents fail most of the time when children display problematic behavoral traits. And this is no less ture here in China as it is in Denmark or France or Canada! |
yes parents are part of society - but you know what - some of those lilly livered critics might point out that western society has set a role for many parents - that of work (indeed the more work the better - ya know - money, money, money) - and that it gives the parent a far from anonymous place to set their children while they are unable to fill their function of provider and protector - the school. They will then go onto say that schools themselves advertise themselves as places of both academic and moral support - and they rigerously campaign for more parental support when it comes to raising children (of course while society is still whispering in everybodies ears - money, money, money) - but at the same time mainstream educational thinking vigerously points out (ultimately through the law) that any moral correction that goes through the social role of schools in the support of societies norms never justify the use of corporal punishment (except of course in extreme circumstance when life is endangered) - which after all is what this thread is all about. With a focus on this issue these people will want to know why you have not written a damning post or two on these type of comments found in this thread-
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Give me a long wooden ruler, a child's knuckles and 5 minutes alone. Language won't matter; he will understand exactly what will happen next time he pulls the same stunt.
We all have our opinions and this is mine. All things should have guidelines, but on those occasions that warrant physical pain as punishment then I am all for it. |
after isn't it these kind of comments that are worth a 1000word long post?
Me personally - I'm of course looking forward to another post on those real dangerspersons to chinese school children - the visa criminal |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: |
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as a postcript to my last post (and please don't let it take away from the real focus of this thread - that of corporal punishment) - I've just been outside walking the streets - the children are in school - but that small gang of scruffy kids (I guess they range from 10 -14) that sometimes come here to hang about on street corners are not in the classroom. But these kids are fit I once saw once running behind a bike with his hand in a basket on the bag-rack - must have been giving a helpfull push. But then again I've been told they are young criminals - street urchins - so it's a good job they're not let into local schools - or they realy would turn into hotbeds of crime.
No I have been influenced by the learned posts in this thread to keep the classroom pure for the higher moral purpose of training for academia - since societies sordid social problems are best left to decay in that place which surely must have been designed for them - the street |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I would never use physical violence as punishment, but I can understand where those that do or support the ideas are coming from. As a former member of the education field in the US, students (especially those in middle and high school) know they are pretty much safe in almost every aspect. Lawsuits against teachers who dare try to punish their students for their indiscretions are not unheard of. On a typical day in a typical grade school a teacher will see and try to prevent schoolyard brawls, students pushing and tripping other students in the hallways and bathrooms, rude and vulgar comments made to other students IN THE PRESENCE OF THE TEACHER, defiance against teachers and other school personnel, lack of respect, lack of good study habits, lack of social mores . . . . boy-oh-boy, I could go on all day.
A LOT of this is due to poor parenting: absentee mother or father, both parents working, latchkey kids, drugs, alcohol and/or violence in the home, too much TV and video games, etc. However, the child is with the teacher eight hours a day, five days a week. Often, teachers will see these children more then their own parents will! Teachers are expected to play nursemaid, babysitter, counselor and, oh yes, educator. But teacher beware should he or she want to *gasp!* punish the child! Then you have parents in your face demanding some sort of restitution. It's ludicrous. Every year that goes by there are more and more punishment restrictions and these kids are (sometimes literally) getting away with murder! Anyone read the recent story about the principal who died on the operating table after a student shot him at school (because the school allegedly punished him for having tobacco on school grounds)?
So, do I support and believe in a student here in China being cruelly berated by a teacher? No. Being slapped across the face or rapped on the knuckles with a ruler? No. A couple swats on the buttocks. Well . . . maybe. Run the track a couple of times in the rain? I could deal with that. Other forms of punishment that could actually instill some values and morals into the child? Yes, definitely. I certainly don't have the worst kids in my school. Truth be told, they are mostly pretty good but we went through some tense times last year and, I feel, it has paid off so far this year. Another teacher in another class confided in me that she wishes I could teach in her room because the students need someone more strict!!!! Yow! That opened my eyes because I always thought I was a fairly laid-back teacher. I'll try to watch that but, on the other hand, most of my days seem to go by smoothly and I have a bunch or really smart, creative, imaginative, mostly well-behaved students. I can live with that. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: |
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good to sse that you do have strong views on bringing up children Kev - but what do you think about these kind of comments -
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Give me a long wooden ruler, a child's knuckles and 5 minutes alone. Language won't matter; he will understand exactly what will happen next time he pulls the same stunt.
We all have our opinions and this is mine. All things should have guidelines, but on those occasions that warrant physical pain as punishment then I am all for it |
maybe you understand them - but do you think a person that openly states these kinds of views are fit to be to take responsibility for a class of kids - after all where is the barrier from the slaping hand to ruller to the birch - all weapons of a kind that have gradually evolved into guns and even further. What do you think that corporal punishment teaches - that bad behaviour doesn't pay, or that violence meted out by the strongest does - and that the more powerful the weapon you have the more respect you get. Is it that attitude that's going to be the saviour of that vulgar, violent disrespectful school culture that your post talks about - or does it utimately spread more non-thinking vulgarity in the name of preserving the status-quo
You know Kev this is a pretty unfair post, since you are obviously against severe forms of corporal punishment and my writing is just turning into another rant - and anyways it's just me asking all the questions - which can only be viewed as me taking the easy way out, not giving any hint of my believes to where a sollution to the problems of violent youth lies! So you know what, I'm almost ready to start talking about my two years working as a mentor for young criminals and about how setting positive social role models for these kids can be quite effective if you actualy catch them soon enough - and of course are not put off by there initial punches, kicks, displays of weaponary and the odd flying wads of saliva. But then again it's nothing to do with the thread's subject - corporal punishment - or is it - lets see. |
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adamsmith
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 259
Location: wuhan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: |
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VICDICK, what would you recommend then as a form of punishment when a student pulls a knife on the teacher that stops him from laying a beating on his ex girlfriend. I have seen this happen in china. and guess what the kid was back in class the next day.
Some of these students do have some serious problems and need to have some form of discipline. Do not get me wrong - I am not for laying a beating on a kid, but they do need some form of discipline. Standing in a corner is corporal punishment, so according to your views this is not allowed.
some forms of punishment must exist as many of thes kids need to have some form of discipline instilled into them, before they reach the age of the middle/high school kids that I was talking about above.
If they get some strictness in their early formative years they wil probably be less likely to act up in their latter years.
But then again, I am not, a spare the rod, spoil the child, believer. |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:01 am Post subject: |
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IT's totally pointless discussing discipline issues with a Doctor pedagogicus kindergartenius with zero exposure to Chinese or western primary, middle school or university students - he can only refer to his textbook cases and demonstrate what a well-intentioned but hopelessly ineffective "teacher" he is.
I wouldn't mind discussing our seemingly irreconcilable views provided he could stoop a little lower and accept that he has yet to learn to think outside his university box.
But such is his tact, training and intuition that he doesn't have to even make an attempt at seeing the problems from a teacher's point of view; ideology is all that matters, and being confrontational shows leadership quality...
I doubt that vikdik has the wellbeing of his charges on his mind; what he does have on his mind is - to show off his perceived superiority even if he can only do that by making sarcastic and wholly unwarranted snide remarks about others in the field. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| VICDICK, what would you recommend then as a form of punishment when a student pulls a knife on the teacher that stops him from laying a beating on his ex girlfriend. I have seen this happen in china. and guess what the kid was back in class the next day. |
I am truely shocked at this - after all steppenwolf has informed us that -
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| You won't find Chinese students going after their own teachers, and even bullying of classmates is not nearly as common as it is in the West |
you must have been unlucky to witness the exception -
But then again another poster has the answer to this kind of problem -
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Give me a long wooden ruler, a child's knuckles and 5 minutes alone. Language won't matter; he will understand exactly what will happen next time he pulls the same stunt.
We all have our opinions and this is mine. All things should have guidelines, but on those occasions that warrant physical pain as punishment then I am all for it |
start hitting them at kindergarten age that's what I say - surely the worst that can happen then is that they learn to threaten with a ruler not a knife!!!
Actualy I have been threatened more than once with a knife - once a motorbike wheel thrown directly at my head - but in such cases of life threatening behaviour - the first proceedure is to phone the police(admitedly kind of hard in China -also remebering that all these proceedures are hard to follow up on in the heat of the moment - but you get better with practice) - the second is to get all other people not directly involved the hell out of the way (also hard in China) - if possible (and in response to the gravity of the situation) try and call in on the spot physical backup you can trust - if another party is being threatened always try and make dialouge untill police come (also f...ing hard in China) - if all hell does break loose then sorry no reel proceedure to follow here other than following your own personal insticts of how best to proceed with trying to execute damage control - which in case of being threatened with a weapon should be the professional proceedure of backing off - indeed if nobody else is in danger - running for that extra help
In cases where a student was out of totaly out of control (a danger to himself or others) but there was no weapon (from my experiences with special needs/kids involved with crime) - if the kid would not listen to verbal reasoning -ie stop and follow the teacher to place where they could discuss the situation - then we were trained to restrain the pupil - on his stomach our body weight on his back pulling both arm up into a vertical position, if a second person was there they would restrain the legs - exactly the same move as done to psychiatric patients. Sometimes we would have to restrain for up to 30 mins - but the result should always be the same - bringing a dangerous situation to an end so that all parties could sit down and talk about creating a solution! In no way was a restraining move used as a punishment (even though for all practical purposes it was tacken by the restrained subject as a punishment - an unavoidable mirroring of that tenant of corporal punishment - the strongest wins) - but as something to protect the prepetrator of a violent action from his own actions - which also effectivly protected property or other people. The kids I used this method on ranged from 13 -18 who still had contact with families but spent some of their time living in special (open-door) accomodation, but I have worked (in attempted unison with the parents and families) with kids who have brocken laws who were were as young as 10. Always after the incidents I had to write a report - and once a month was questioned regarding these reports - to make sure what I had done was justified and not another version of punishment with the main purpose of handing out physical or mental pain.
Of course all this stuff is nearly totaly impractical to follow in china - imagine the police in such a situation - a knife they would run together with teachers - or just sit their open jawed - how did your situation resolve itseslf? Of course back home (talking about DK now) that kid would have been assesed and sent off to a place with special folk like me - to help him find ways to manage his life in a socialy acceptable manner (not beat the living shit out of him - or keep him in black hole on bread and water) only to get back to normal school when assesed fit to return - ie a danger not to himself or others - but indeed a potential resource for society. If over the age of 15 a custodial sentence would also have to be served. Also all that restraining krap is useless in situations where you are outnumbered or the perp is too strong for you - and imagine local reaction if an FT did restrain a local kid - holy mosses
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| If they get some strictness in their early formative years they wil probably be less likely to act up in their latter years. |
So correct, but then again it depends on what you mean by strictness - strictness in following sensible preventitive proceedure I beleive can be effective. You know experts claim they can spot anti-social behaviour in toddlers that may lead to future social problems such as violence- and that real work can be made in sorting these problems out (looking at family, looking for disability, seeing if there are special needs - which although expensive to cater for - are darn sight cheaper than catering for potential problems caused in the future). So kindies and indeed all schools in DK are places where children not only are educated but are also monitered (what a disgusting big-brother type word) by teachers, pedagogues, child psychologists (even parents and family if they so wish to attend - they will certainly be called in for consultation if social problems in the classroom crop-up) for potential future problems. And one of the major benefits of this type of early warning system - hopefuly not so much need for that old-fashioned and primitive rod that is associated with physical pain |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| IT's totally pointless discussing discipline issues with a Doctor pedagogicus kindergartenius with zero exposure to Chinese or western primary, middle school or university students - he can only refer to his textbook cases and demonstrate what a well-intentioned but hopelessly ineffective "teacher" he is. |
you know what Steppenwolf - one of the best tips I can give you about being an effective teacher in difficult situations - is not to loose your temper. |
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