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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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So, if I understand this correctly, it's your contention that there is a vast right-wing conspiracy to supply the poor of the nation with televisions on long-term credit so that they can be brainwashed by government propaganda.
That sounds rather far-fetched to me: I doubt there's anyone within PAN smart enough to think up such a diabolical scheme... |
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delacosta
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 325
Location: zipolte beach
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Who's on the other side of the chessboard, moving pieces? |
During the election all sides were moving pieces-however the only one capable of solving the Oaxacan problem before it escalated out of hand was Fox-like it or not that's presidencialismo Mexican style.
Ruiz sent in the robo cops back in June when this thing was in its solvable infancy, because he had already spent the teacher's salary increases on funding Madrazo's election campaign. His own belligerent ignorance led him to believe that the Oaxacan teachers union would back down. They did exit the zocalo only to regroup later (sound familiar?) and run off the police.
Both the PAN and the PRD sat back and watched as Ruiz and the PRI self-immolated themselves amongst he Oaxacan electorate. Oaxaca has never been a priority on the federal scene and as long as the PRI was losing votes and behaving like brutes why would they protest?
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The saddest thing is that all of this is being done to prop up Ruiz, an indefensible PRI gangster. Why?
Why indeed. That makes little sense.
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Next sentence Guy. To allow Calderon to be sworn in as Prez.
Calderon will not be sworn in with or without anyone's help. A majority in congress has to approve of him and recognize him as president. This is the trump card that the PRI has been threatening to use all this time.
It makes little sense, yes. But the PRI has been acting in a senseless manner for quite some time now. It was senseless to allow Madrazo to postulate for President. It has been senseless to continue propping up Ruiz. PRI has never, up to now, been held accountable for any of their acts.
Good PRI, bad PRI, it's always been irrelevant. We're the PRI and we own Mexico.
As you point out they were trounced in the elections. One would assume that they might start to learn from their mistakes. Old dinosaurs die hard.
But of the three, the PRI is the most astute politically. PAN is the most naive, as Fox quickly demonstrated when he tried to staff his new government by Harvard trained technocrats gleaned from headhunter's lists. TO be fair Fox was never really given a chance to govern during the last 6 years, because he was/is clueless as to how to do so in real life. In response and aided by his Prozac prescription he created the imaginary Foxilandia, the same one that declared today that peace and tranquility has been returned to Oaxaca.
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PRI doesn't have the power to offer PAN in order for them 'to govern as they see fit'. We'll have to wait until the first pieces of new legislation come up in Congress before being able to see how dead PRI is, but you will see it. The dialogue is now between PAN and PRD in Congress.
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Please. There is no dialogue between PAN and PRD in congress or the senate. As was seen during the election the more astute of the bunch, led by Esther Gordillo, quickly threw their support behind the PAN. The only way for the PRI to be able to maintain power now that they are the 3d level party in Mexico is to negotiate with PAN. PRI has absolutely no qualms as to whom they share a bed with. And PAN has demonstrated that they are willing to share their bed with the devil in order to rule. I wonder if Calderon realizes he will be the one sleeping on the wet spot from now on?!
Anyways...my main point is that its a disgusting shame that because of politicking an incredibley beautiful city has been nearly razed, and lives have been lost. The financial costs are going to be insane. I read that it would have taken 60 million pesos to solve the problem way back when, and the estimate now is over a billion, not counting fixing up the city and the massive PFP operation.
The PAN finally voting with the PRD together at this point is out of fear that this thing is going to ignite the rest of Mexico, not out of any sudden desire to come clean and do the right thing-which is what Mexicn politicians across all parties need to do.
By the way, I do believe in miracles. Honestly. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| Calderon will not be sworn in with or without anyone's help. A majority in congress has to approve of him and recognize him as president. This is the trump card that the PRI has been threatening to use all this time. |
Come on now, do you really think this any type of threat? In Canada we have a Governor General - official representative of the Queen in Canada and technically, our leader. She (or he? I never keep up with which author or artist has the appointed position) can overturn any bit of legislation passed by parliament. It has not happened in modern times.
The Americans have something similar in the Electoral College process for selecting a president.
Formalities. An empty threat and a very weak reason to find a PAN-PRI complot. Calderon will don the sash in December.
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| Oaxaca has never been a priority on the federal scene |
Now this is true. It also helps to explain why PAN wouldn't risk itself by allying with the PRI in any way over what amounts to a state of little importance, in your words.
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| During the election all sides were moving pieces-however the only one capable of solving the Oaxacan problem before it escalated out of hand was Fox-like it or not that's presidencialismo Mexican style. |
In Mexico pre-2000, yes. But, the very ascension of Fox to the presidency destroyed that element of Mexican governance. The cult-of-personaloty that ruled this land from the Revolution on is still there, but it isn't backed by legislative or state power any longer. The very things that harmed Mexico in the past, you are now saying would be needed to solve the issues in Oaxaca now?
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| There is no dialogue between PAN and PRD in congress or the senate. |
It may currently consist of raised middle fingers across the Chamber of Deputies, but my point is that poles of federal power are now PAN and PRD with PRI barely having a pulse, on the federal level. The states are a different matter. The next 6 years will be dominated by the clashes over legislation between these two, with PRI alternatively playing the jilted lover and the moon-eyed mistress, but never the spouse.
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| Anyways...my main point is that its a disgusting shame that because of politicking an incredibley beautiful city has been nearly razed, and lives have been lost. The financial costs are going to be insane. I read that it would have taken 60 million pesos to solve the problem way back when, and the estimate now is over a billion, not counting fixing up the city and the massive PFP operation. |
Completely agree. Let's just hope Ruiz packs his bags and skedaddles sooner rather than later. |
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Samantha
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 2038
Location: Mexican Riviera
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Gee why don't some of you tell us how you really feel about Prez Fox! 
I think he has done a good job, my Mexican husband (who does NOT come from a wealthy background) thinks he has done a good job. He has certainly done some good things whether the AMLO people want to admit it or not. And I sure wish my mother-in-law hadn't fallen for that credit conspiracy thing cuz each month we get to bail her out! 
To each his own, but glad to see there is so much passion from foreigners regarding the complicated issue of Mexican politics! Woo-hoo! |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: |
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I was debating with my brother-in-law via IM last night on the same issues. He's strongly pro-AMLO and anti-Fox.
At one point, I paused, and asked him if he was upset in any way that I was a foreigner having the argument with him. He said no and that my nationality had nothing to do with the fact I am a right-wing pig.  I called him a brainless leftie and we moved on to family affairs, laughing it off.
Having such a passion for Mexican politics seems a little weird, no? For me, it has to speak of a love for this country and a deep interest in seeing her thrive in the world.
It is an odd juxtaposition that has forever changed the way I see Canada, immigrants in Canada, and politics there. |
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Samantha
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 2038
Location: Mexican Riviera
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:57 am Post subject: |
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I suppose that's correct, the love of the country thing. Makes sense. But yes it does seem weird. I never discussed (or listened to discussions about) Canadian politics this much my entire life in Canada. I had been tossing this Mexican passion off to something like "pillow talk" with spouses especially since some of the comments were way deep, wild and passionate!  |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Here is the last video shot by Brad Will, independent video journalist killed in Oaxaca.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_jBaOKAJnI
Long video, possibly disturbing last few 30 seconds, be advised. |
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delacosta
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 325
Location: zipolte beach
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry I don�t have the time or energy to argue these points with you Guy, but the fact is PAN and PRI are aligned and working together, ever since July 2nd. They immediately changed, via fast track legislation, who would be the party to receive Fox in his failed attempt at the grito. According to congressional law the 2nd power in the house does that. When all the commissions (ministries I guess in Canadian terms, not sure what American would be) were divided up the PRD was shut out.
PAN is in power because key PRI operators threw their support behind them. Calderon made so many deals in order to gain his razor this advantage, which in any case wouldn't have been enough if it weren't for the fraud, that his kneepads had holes in them by the time July 3d rolled around.
Why have PAN been allying with PRI? In order to govern-they are clueless, but also lacking enough political power to do as they'd like to. Their handling of this affair and others in the last 6 years proves this.
The PRD has not even recognized Calderon as president. Calderon has to play cards with someone-no party can govern having won with such a thin margin of victory. The only one willing to play with PAN is the PRI. They are united in their desperation, their desperate need for each other. Their union is the ultimate dysfunctional relationship.
In the history of Mexican politics these two parties have always been archenemies. Salinas had former PAN leader Manuel Clothier killed in 1988, after the famous 'crashing computer system' fraud. It's interesting to note that Clothier at the time was calling for all the same measures that Obrador has been-not recognizing the president, massive marches, declaring of an alternate government, etc. I've read the story and its like history repeating itself. The results of the election were challenged and the case went to arbitration and the judges all came back and said everything was legit and everyone called for unity and respect for Mexican institutions. In that election though, Clothier came in third place, so it wasn't up to him to rally the masses. That responsibility fell on Cuatemoc C�rdemas shoulders, who unfortunately at the time wasn't up to the task. Perhaps he envisioned the extreme turbulence that Mexico would have to go through in order to stand up to its vicious ruling class. Perhaps his and his family�s lives were threatened. Perhaps he was offered a large incentive to back down. More than likely a combination of the three convinced him. In any case it didn't convince Clothier and he paid the price with his life 5 months after the election in a 'car crash'. The six years under Salinas were rife with accidents and suicides-over 500 of emerging PRD members were killed or disappeared during this time.
And like any dysfunctional relationship, the family involved is who pays the highest price. The family in this case is Mexico. The political and ruling classes wish for the dysfunctional relationship to continue as is, unchallenged and ignored. The first step in order for any type of healing to take place is to admit there's a problem. Currently both PRI and PAN are in a state of denial. The PRI managed to have a simulated democracy for over 70 years and the strength of big sick daddy was never seriously challenged-understandably so-dad's really sick and really powerful.
The only person who had the temerity to mention some of the issues that need to be looked at in order to cure this cancer that has been Mexican politics, in the last presidential election, was Lopez Obrador. Those that have a vested interest, i.e. the cancerous parasites in power made sure that he would not govern. It is incredible to what lengths people are willing to go to maintain their state of denial.
Ulysis Ruiz is nothing more than an incurable boil rising to the surface in a country ridden with such symptoms. He needs to go.
The PRI's national executive committee has issued a statement in which they have decided to close ranks in support of the Oaxacan governor. This dinosaur doesn't want to die just yet. The transition of a simulated democracy to a real one is looking to be a more difficult task than anticipated, as all real change is. A known and established dysfunctional relationship is often more comfortable than the risks inherent in the unknown path towards a healthy state of being. The PRI is behaving like the mother in an incestuous family who prefers to pretend that her husband isn't abusing her daughters. To acknowledge such requires a tremendous amount of strength and the family relationship as existed will be ruptured and never the same. Unbelievably painful for all concerned, but necessary and unavoidable if the family is to heal.
Mexico is on the brink, and Oaxaca is the kindling. I believe that Lopez Obrador would have been a leader willing to take Mexico by the hand and take the first steps towards healing. Perhaps Mexico isn't ready. Perhaps there will be many casualties along this road. How the Oaxacan crisis is handled will be demonstrative of what lies ahead |
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MELEE
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 2583
Location: The Mexican Hinterland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Here is an interview that might interest some of you
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_ron_jaco_061031_interview_with_a_oax.htm
it is with a member of the APPO, who is Oaxaqueno, but happens to have a graduate degree from the University of Texas.
LS, For an example of the PAN's vision of Mexico, you need look no further than Ricardo Salinas Pliego who has gotten rich convincing Mexicans that they should be living an wasteful lifestyle that goes against their traditional values, then extending them credit and selling the trappings of that lifestyle at three times their cash price, then monoplizing their, in many cases only, form of information to manipulate them to believe in his vision more and more and more. Using people like Erasmo Catarino to sweeten the medicine. I'm not saying Mexicans don't have right to things like fridges, but it's wrong to convience them that they need flat screen TVs to not be "backwards" or that they should buy shoes on credit!
Last edited by MELEE on Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Seems you did have the time and energy! But all I see in what you write is reason after reason as to why PAN and PRI cannot be allied. And more reasons for PRI becoming less of a factor on the federal scene, as shown by election results, poll after poll after poll, and basic common sense talking to Mexicans about what the PRI is and was.
Most of the PRD have recognized Calderon by the way. Again, one has to keep an eye on who's doing the talking, as no party or government is a single thing unto itself. PRD is fractured both in congress (some are throwing support behind Calderon, others are stonewalling) and the DF PRDistas have decided to recognize him as well. At least some in the PRD understand the real political situation and the will of the electorate. That just might make them viable in the upcoming congress. |
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sarliz
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 198
Location: Jalisco
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Alright, I`m gonna hijack this thread for a second to just ask for some advice. In a moment of colassaly bad timing, I flew into Oaxaca this past friday, literally as the violence was escalating. I was going to be starting teaching this coming Monday at a language school in town. The director of the school, who I was supposed to be meeting with tomorrow, is now stuck out of town in D.F. because of transport issues. He did vaguely speculate via email that it might be difficult to round up students until after the police leave, the governor resigns, or things calm down in general. I can tell from visiting Oaxaca previously and even a little from being here now that I would love living and working here, were the whole massive civil unrest thing not going down. So what to do? Wait it out? Flee? Can I even get out of here if I want to? I await your sage advice. |
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Samantha
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 2038
Location: Mexican Riviera
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Contact Melee. Her school is not far away and she alluded to a job being available recently if you were here in Mexico, which you are. Good luck and let us know how you make out. |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| MELEE wrote: |
| LS, For an example of the PAN's vision of Mexico |
I think you misunderstand me: I'm not trying to deny that the poor are getting ripped off by outrageous credit plans. When you can walk into an Elektra and buy a TV for 1800 pesos cash, or pay 100 pesos/month for 36 months, quite obviously the credit consumers are getting shafted.
I just believe it's ordinary corporate greed, not an evil PAN-organized plot to dominate the nation. |
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MELEE
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 2583
Location: The Mexican Hinterland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Sarliz
I sent you a PM. |
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periodista-masajista
Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 54
Location: Texas, USA
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