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thrifty
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1665
Location: chip van
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 Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Many ex-pats don't choose to live in compounds - they are forced to live there by their employers. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Yes - but except in the case of single women, most expats have the option of taking a 'live-out allowance and using that to pay for rent in a place of their own choosing. Hardly a case of being 'forced'.
In any case, where you live is not the most important factor, at the end of the day. I suppose what I'm talking about is a 'compound mentality' (otherwise known as the 'Jarir and Tamimi" mentality) whereby many expats seek to isolate themselves psychologically, socially and physically from the surrounding society, viewing all things Saudi with disdain. And I'd like to emphasise again that blame for this isolatioinism does not lie entirely on the 'expat side' - as I've said before, even those who go out of their way to make local friends and develop a genuine understanding of Saudi society all too frequently find themselves rebuffed. |
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Abba
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 97
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| �. where expats and Saudis live in their seperate universes - suits most people on both 'sides'. |
But you will find this as well between different tribes in SA, where each tribe has its own universe, traditions, own Sheikh Al-Kabila, etc. So, I think, it is the SA culture and traditions which has created this type of separation environment, and is reflected more between the foreigners and the Saudis society. Even, you will find that some tribe do not allow, or at least object, for example, that one of their lady to marry a person who is outside their tribe. That�s why in SA there is a problem of baby/children disease (I forget the medical name for it!) because of the inter-marriage within a family.
Also, the tribes in SA are classified, which means there are the powerful ones, and the weak ones, as reflected on who is in power!
What about the Shiite who are living in the Mid East of the country?? Are they integrated or isolated? And where do they fit in the society (which is another issue needs attention). What happen in Najran some year ago with the uprising of the Zaidia tribe near the Yemeni border, and then the authorities crushed the uprising, and the area was totally closed.
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| .. That said, there is a big difference between some degree of mutual aloofness between expats and locals, and the manner in which way too many expatriates openly disparage Saudi culture and society. |
Is this true for all foreigners (including the ones from the Arab and Islamic countries), or is it only limited to Western speaking English Expatriates, especially the US/UK/Canadians ??
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| .. Many ex-pats don't choose to live in compounds - they are forced to live there by their employers |
This is not true for all the cases. The ones who are forced, and may be there is a logical reason for it (security reason), is the US/UK military staff (pilots, technicians, trainers), they obliged to live in a highly guarded compound, which is forbidden for Saudis to enter (except with special permission and special people).
I have know a lot of expatriates from French, Germany, British and so on, were living in Villas outside the city, and not obliged to go and live in the private compound.
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| .. even those who go out of their way to make local friends and develop a genuine understanding of Saudi society all too frequently find themselves rebuffed. |
It depends on the type of local Saudi friend and what type of tribe he belongs. There are some foreign Arabs who got through, and developed good social relationship with the locals, and even some got the Saudi nationality. So, I think it depends on which area you are, and most important which tribe and type of Saudi person |
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thrifty
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1665
Location: chip van
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Where are all these "live out allowances?" |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Abba wrote: |
| But you will find this as well between different tribes in SA, where each tribe has its own universe, traditions, own Sheikh Al-Kabila, etc. So, I think, it is the SA culture and traditions which has created this type of separation environment, and is reflected more between the foreigners and the Saudis society. |
Good point Abba... makes sense...
VS |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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...so basically people are people and influenced by the local culture and family systems and education. Saudis are strange to us as expats, and even to themselves sometimes...but to say one hates the culture and is here to make money alone is repulsive to our profession and to those that pay our wages, whether they know it and at time support it by supplying things like compound housing. In a way it�s an attempt to keep us expats employed here by any means, buy providing us with what is to the best of their ability some semblance of the life we used to life. Its saying "we live like this, but you don�t have to, and I will make you a home similar to your other one, so you will keep working here."
So, why do people who hate it so much say they hate it so much rather than just leaving- the money factor I guess? I hope when their bags are full of enough psychological baggage and cash, they will just leave. What�s sad is the impression they leave behind for the locals and leftover expats to have to deal with. At the same time all their groans can be entertaining to respond to with pointed jabs at their mission statement to save the world from itself and allow the American global domination machine to run over any remaining bits of local culture. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: PRIVACY |
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The 'Jareer and Tamimi' mentality is not only an expat phenomenon. Lots of Saudis live like that too ! Isolating themselves from strangers. It is called 'PRIVACY' and is one of the hallmarks of a civilised society. How else can we live in a society cheek by jowl with so many unknown people !
As for Abba I wish she would go and live on her perfect Islamic Society and leave the rest of us alone ! |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Abba is a he, and a math teacher with an agenda from what I have gathered.  |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding Saudi reserve and obsession with family privacy, I said pretty much the same sort of thing in my earlier post: that for Saudis, the idea of the home as a sanctuary from a dangerous world is very much part of the culture. The whole compound thing fits into that quite well, but as I also said, that is not an excuse for adopting a disparaging attitude to a culture one knows little about.
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| Where are all these "live out allowances?" |
I don't know - why don't you ask your employer? All I can say is that everywhere I've worked in the Kingdom, male employees have the option of getting a fixed allowance to cover, or contribuite to, the rent of accomodation supplied by their employer. Having said that, I've never heard of anyone using hte money to get off the compound they were 'forced' to live in, but rather to move from their employer-supplied accomodation to a compound.
| Quote: |
. That said, there is a big difference between some degree of mutual aloofness between expats and locals, and the manner in which way too many expatriates openly disparage Saudi culture and society.
Is this true for all foreigners (including the ones from the Arab and Islamic countries), or is it only limited to Western speaking English Expatriates, especially the US/UK/Canadians ??
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What "Western speaking" is, I do not pretend to know.
With regard to the rest of your post, I have found that expats from pretty much all and any religous and linguistic backgrounds find it very hard to get to know Saudi society on more than a superficial level. I have many Syrian, Egyptian or Jordanian acquaintances, most of them Muslim, who have few if any real Saudi friends, and who experienced a great deal of culture shock when relocating here. And yes, many of these Arabs also have a patronising attitude towards Saudis, though they tend to be wise/diplomatic/polite/two-faced enough to refrain from letting the locals know that they consider them vulgar, uneducated Bedu who happened to be sitting on the world's largest oil reserves. |
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thrifty
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1665
Location: chip van
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Cleopatra"]
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| Where are all these "live out allowances?" |
I don't know - why don't you ask your employer? All I can say is that everywhere I've worked in the Kingdom, male employees have the option of getting a fixed allowance to cover, or contribuite to, the rent of accomodation supplied by their employer. Having said that, I've never heard of anyone using hte money to get off the compound they were 'forced' to live in, but rather to move from their employer-supplied accomodation to a compound.
No need to ask as I already know. The "living out bachelor allowance" was stopped years ago.
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Is this true for all foreigners (including the ones from the Arab and Islamic countries), or is it only limited to Western speaking English Expatriates, especially the US/UK/Canadians ??
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Many employees do NOT have the choice of taking a housing allowance. In ALL my jobs in KSA - except the first in the 1970's - I have been provided with housing, and there has been no opting out. |
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thrifty
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1665
Location: chip van
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| That is exactly what I said. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| n ALL my jobs in KSA - except the first in the 1970's - I have been provided with housing, and there has been no opting out |
And in all the jobs I've worked in in KSA (all in the past several years) male employees have the option of taking a live-out allowance if they did not find employer-provided accomodation to be to their liking.
BTW are you living in a compound, or on housing provided specifically for the employees of your college? If the latter, I can see why they may not give you a living-out allowance, but I repeat: I have never heard of any male employee (certainly not a teacher) being 'forced' to live on a compound. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| male employees have the option of taking a live-out allowance if they did not find employer-provided accomodation to be to their liking. |
This only happens if there is a shortage of housing.
As both thrifty and scot47 have said, in most places the decision is made by the employer.
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| but I repeat: I have never heard of any male employee (certainly not a teacher) being 'forced' to live on a compound. |
Depends on what you mean by 'forced'. If the employee is given a place on a compound, he is hardly going to spend his own money and get a second place elsewhere.
As thrifty has said, BAe employees are given accommodation on a compound with no choice, KFUPM have the campus housing, DCC puts people in the Al-Falak compound, Bechtel Jubail puts people in its mini-compound, and a large etc. |
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Abba
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 97
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:21 am Post subject: Re: PRIVACY |
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| .. Lots of Saudis live like that too ! Isolating themselves from strangers. |
Which strangers?? Those strangers are brought by the Saudis to work in their contry, and then they are called strangers ! I think it is a contradiction.
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| ..It is called 'PRIVACY' and is one of the hallmarks of a civilised society. .. |
It depends what you mean by "Privacy"? Also, I think, "privacy" could be a hallmark of un-civilised society in a different context! Like a gun,you can use it to defend yourself, as well to commit a murder! the same with 'Privacy'.
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| �.How else can we live in a society cheek by jowl with so many unknown people ! |
But, all those unknown people all have an Identity and dignity and are known to the SA government.
The unknown people, are me, you, him, etc.
Let's use some mathematical reasoning!
Known = Defined and has an identity (e.g Nationality)
Unkown = Variable, which means can take any identity (e.g any nationality)
So, according to the above definition, the "unknown" includes anybody with any nationality! So are you rejecting yourself !
Scot47
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| ..As for Abba I wish she would go and live on her perfect Islamic Society and leave the rest of us alone ! |
Queen of Sheeba is right I am He not She. It seems you do not read between the lines. Also, did not you notice the person on the camel on that picture, does he look like a man or woman?? 
Who said that I want to live in a perfect Islamic Society? And what do you mean by "perfect Islamic Society", and does it really exist? And which one? Saudi, Iran, Egypt, or Libyan one??
You are free to live wherever you want and eat whatever you want, but to tell people where to live, what to eat, and what to dress, I think it is a violation of one of the principle of universal human rights.
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| �. and leave the rest of us alone ! |
Who is "us" ?? is it "u" and "s", which means yourself and society, or yourself and the posters, which one? Did they give you their consent to reject me?! (remember, the rights of humans to share the oxygen of this earth!).
I think your call is promoting 'isolation', 'privatisation', and 'rejection' of the other. Where are the common human values?
We are living in the age of Internet and 'Globalisation', with no borders nor private compounds.
Do you know that my best friends in this world are from UK and SA. I hope I will meet you one day in UK, and we continue our discussion on the Hyde park near a lake with a cup of Arabian white coffee with "ZanJabeel".
"Queen of Sheba"]
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| Abba is a he, and a math teacher with an agenda from what I have gathered |
Which agenda? I did not know that I have an agenda? |
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