Job Discussion Forums

[Guy Courchesne]

[M@tt]

ontoit i agree, good post.

the fact that nazis believed in universal values doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Guy Courchesne]

[M@tt]

sorry, the term is unclear. i should have said something like "absolute values" or "Good with a capital G". qualities that are good no matter where/when you are living.

i don't think that means you have to force people to adapt to what you hold to be Good in all situations. i don't think it means you have to even teach or tell them to think that way either. but, neither do i feel compelled to pretend that any quality in one culture is just as good or valuable as a quality in another culture for the sake of tolerance.
if, for example, honesty is something that is really Good, why do i have to look at a culture that encourages dishonesty and say "well, that's the way they do it, that's their culture, so it's okay by me"?

as a footnote, when i say culture i don't just mean a country. a family could have a culture of physical abuse, for example, and i'm sure it would sounds ridiculous to shrug it off and say "that's how their family does it, it's neither bad nor good, just different."

i hope this makes sense. it's 2:30am so probably not.

[Like a Rolling Stone]

Many people in Japan reckon that its better and more "yasashii" (gentle) than other langusges (esp. English). There's one guy who writes in the paper and always talks about how Japanese is better for this than Englsih and better for taht than Englsih and his logic is alqways weird.

[ontoit]

All of us are in possession of something that the vast majority of those who try their best to yank our chains from the back of the classroom lack: we are experienced in two or more cultures.

We know things from the perspective of someone who has the advantage of sitting atop the fence, able to see both sides, as oppossed to those poor individuals who really have no idea at all of what is on the other side of that fence.

Thus, many speak to us from a position of ignorance. We, as the more experienced, thus richer and more mature, can afford, like the parent to the child, to be generous in holding back condemnation of the ignorance whilst giving the offender time to learn what we already know.

Additionally, experience has taught me that such folks have problems in other areas as well, problems that others notice either along with or before you. Thus, in an exaggerated but accurate sense, arguing with such individuals is like getting into it with the town drunk about anything other than leftovers or a place to sleep: you end up looking all the more pathetic. Ignore such individuals, as their own kind usually do, and you'll find yourself with a lot more people to talk with during the breaks.

[Guy Courchesne]

Yes, it makes sense Matt, despite the hour.

What can you say about dishonesty? That's a good one to pick by the way. Which cultures encourage dishonesty? Since we're in Mexico, let's start there. Do you think Mexican culture encourages dishonesty?

Do you hold honesty as a universal value? What are the characteristics of what you call honesty?

What do you think the Mexicans say of honesty, or the Japanese?

[Like a Rolling Stone]

[PlayadelSoul]

Of course, there are characteristics that are universally accepted as being good to have. My earlier point is that, as English teachers, it is not really our job to teach these values. We should, obviously, be punctual, tolerant, patient, well-organized and hard-working. That goes without saying and is the same in most, if not all, professions.

The idea that one considers himself a role model because he teaches is, to me, silly. I know a lot of teachers whom I would not let my kids close to, let alone try to emulate. All work is honorable and there are many I consider to be role models, in many different professions. A certificate or degree in ESL is not a license to push what I value or believe onto others. It simply means I can teach English.

[Guy Courchesne]

[Samantha]

Is punctuality a characteristic or rather a result of the dreaded time-clock, whereby pay is deducted if you punch in 2 minutes after prescribed time?

[MikeySaid]

[Guy Courchesne]

That's a good read with good Mexican examples.

I don't think one can say honesty is a universal value. If it is, then no culture practices it as a universal value, but rather, each culture (or better, each person) sets its boundaries and the appropriateness of honesty's employ, based on other values held.

What would a North American do in this situation?

You just met two people at a dinner party. They are parents of a newborn baby, who they present to you as "little Johnny". You think the baby is as ugly as sin. The parents ask you, 'isn't he beautiful?'.

[ontoit]

I wonder if it wouldn't be more accurate to replace the term cultural value with cultural ideal.

Often our values end up in the Sunday-truth drawer while we navigate our way through the week. If politicians and successful businessmen were writing the dictionaries, how would they define honesty? Punctuality is a neutral term when you factor in the attitude of the various parties involved: if it's not socially, finacially or otherwise valuable in some personal way, showing up on time is apt to be an extreme courtesy rather than a given. If I fear your condemnation, pretty girl, or losing the chance to close the deal, get the job or make a good impression, Daddy Warbucks, then you'll find me present and accounted for at the appointed time.

Cultural values are, I think, kind of like Captain Barbosa's interpretation of the Pirate's Code: "They're more like guidelines."

[TheLongWayHome]