Job Discussion Forums

[guest of Japan]

Thank you Nomadder.

As far as this thread goes, I don't think a single man following this forum would dispute the arguments about western men in Japan if it were qualified with words like "some" and "many."

My point of grievance is that the argument is implying that professional courtesy doesn't exist toward western women because of the western man's quest for sexual exploits with Japanese women.

I'll cite three examples of western women I've worked with.

1. She was an American. She was already at the job for a year before I came to Japan. She was hands-down the worst teacher I've ever worked with. She did not plan her own lesson. Most of her students dropped her classes, and as such, my work load increased because of her incompetence. To top it off she was extremely opinionated about how to teach. My reaction to her was indifferent bordering on hostile.

2. She was a Canadian. She had lived in Japan for about a year before I worked with her. She was a sincere teacher. She planned her lessons well. Her students loved her. She was thoughtful in her interactions with fellow teachers. My reaction to her was friendly.

3. She was Canadian. She was actually my replacement. After her one week corporate training, I was responsible for giving her 3 days of on the job training before leaving everything I'd done for more than two years in her hands. She was callous and disrespectful. She did not seem to realize the position she was in as a new teacher. My reaction inwardly was hostility, but outwardly I was compassionate and constructive. If we had worked together longer, I'm sure I would have become hostile to her.

My point is that how you do your job and conduct yourself at work have far more bearing on your interactions with co-workers (Do you like my hyphen?) than gender. To suggest the opposite insults my professionalism.

[Japanbarb]

I have to agree with the original poster about the at best indifference, at worst hostility of a lot of Western men towards Western women in Japan.
This is not some fleeting impression, as I have spent around 7 years in Japan, off and on. I must say I was mighty glad to be here with my husband. If I'd had to depend on the Western men I worked with for moral support I might as well have curled up and died. I really feel for all unattached Western females here.

Workwise, I'd have to say my best experiences were at a school where, freakishly for English teaching in Japan, there was a predominance of female staff. My worst was at a big school where all the other teachers were male apart from a couple of part timers, whose schedules were different from mine. I recall most of the guys didn't even bestir themselves to say "Goodbye" when I left.

As for documentary evidence of a hostile attitude: just look at the episode of the "Charisma Man" in the August edition of "Japanzine". Western woman as monstrous white whale - there's good honest loathing for you. And don't tell me it's the puny white guy who's being satirised!

[easyasabc]

[foster]

You posted some valid questions, ones that many Non-J women have discussed ad naesuem over the years in Japan. Flamed or not, I will try my best to answer a few from my point of view and from what I have seen/heard over the years.

1. Are you disgruntled due to the fact that you are dating less in Japan than in your home country?

Not disgruntled. I knew when I left that the dating opportunities would be limited and I was prepared for that. To be honest, part of the reason I left was to get away from the dating scene.

2. Do you feel inadequate comparing yourself to Japanese women who date non Japanese? If so, why. If not, please state why not.

Inadequate how? Do I think they are prettier/smarter/more interesting than me? Some are, some aren't. I try not to compare myself to many people. Western and Japanese are very different and in so many ways, that would be an unfair comparison. I have better traits than some Japanese girls and vice versa.

3. Is it a step down because some men in Japan date Japanese women?

Step down...how? For the men or the J-girls? For a few men, yes, I think it is. I have a friend who is dating a girl who he speaks to about very superficial things , no deep intellectual conversations. Yet, he is a very intelligent man and I know he craves these conversations. His choice when he chose to date a Japanese woman. He was aware of it.
In some cases, it is a step down for the Japanese girl. I have met some beautiful, intelligent, strong Japanese girls who are dating/married to some complete dolts!! I have to wonder why.....although even back in my home country, the same is true.

4. Do you think there is always a communication barrier where couples are unable to communicate or do you believe it is possible for a couple from different countries to communicate effectively?

No, I don't think it will ALWAYS be there, but there are certain nuances and emotions that are harder to display. It is entirely possible for the couples to communicate effectively. HEck, there are western-western couples who can't communicate!!!
Communication is VERY important for a relationship. I myself could not date/marry someone who I was unable to communicate with. That is my preference and personal need.

5. What do you think the main reason many non Japanese men stay in Japan longer than non Japanese women?

Personally, I think Japan is tougher on women all around...not JUST dating. It is a very male dominated society where women are not as valued as in Western societies. They have a picture of what women should be and do and since many western women will not stay home and raise babies, we are considered difficult and stubborn. If we state an opinion, we are pushy. If we stand up for what we want, we are b****y.

6. What do you say to all the non Japanese women that date Japanese men?

There are a few that I have met. Usually one or the other has an excellent grasp of the foreign language. Often times, they were men who had lived a considerable amount of time in a foreign country and were not as chauvanistic as SOME other Japanese men.
I had a Japanese man ask me out and I did go. It was not the fact that he was Japanese that turned me off. We didn't click. Plain and simple.

7. In a society that looks down upon "bigger" people to some extent, do you feel fat comparing yourself to Japanese women?

I am fat. I know it and I make no bones about it. I have curves. I have REAL *beep* (not the overly padded bras), I have hips and a butt. Again, I don't compare.

8. If you subscribe to an idea that many of the guys in Japan date Japanese women because they can't get dates back home or are a "2" in their home country, why would you want to date them in Japan or care if they are unavailable to date you because they are dating a Japanese woman?

I don't want to date them. Actually, I don't want to date anyone right now, but those are my issues. There are SOME of the couples(ANY couples) that I see and, yes, I admit, I do cringe. I have to wonder what it is about him/her that was the attraction. Different strokes for different folks I guess...

AS for the PM questions, I am afraid I can not respond. I have neither read them nor posted one to Nomadder. Sorry......

I work in an office that has both males/females in higher positions. When the women present and idea, it is shot down...no questions asked or consdieration given. Guarnteed, about 2 weeks later, a MAN presents the SAME Idea and SURPRISE..it is accepted, no questions asked.

Women in Japan have it tougher than men, IN MY OPINION. We should not be strong and assertive for fear of getting labelled as a loud-mouth and difficult. I personally find it difficult to be the least bit submissive and house-wifey and could never relegate myself to such a role.

I am also not going to apologize for my opinions. I will apologize however if I was too general in my wording. This is not true for ALL men...or ALL Japanese women. My apologies to Rockwolf. You seem like a genuine article. If only there were more like you everywhere.

There are many odd coupling in Japan for many reasons. One of my good friends(western) is dating a complete idiot (western). She herself has admitted that he is not someone she would go near on her home soil. WHAZUPWIDTHAT????? She is a smart, capable, interetsing person. I don't understand it.

Being so far from home makes people look for comfort in different places...be it with people or food or drink. It is a tough move to be that far from your comfort zone and as humans, we need to feel comforted and happy. My reasons for moving to Japan were to gain experience and earn some money and travel.

And yes, our workplace manner is more important than gender. However, sometimes, given that this is a VERY male dominated society, it is hard not to take it in a gender biased way.

So, finally, to Canuck (from another canuck), I hope this answered some of your questions. I am not a bitter peeved off White woman. I am not afraid to answer your questions. (p.s. where is your farm??? Maybe close to mine!!)

[rockwolf]

[canuck]

[quote="easyasabc"]

[canuck]

@foster, you seemed well spoken and thoughtful in your response. It's nice to see another point of view. With some of your comments, I think you hit the nail on the head. Without having done detailed research with an adequate sample size and test methodology for you assumptions, I think you used many examples that would be hard to argue with.

Farm was in Western Canada!

[Vince]

Although the school director's comments are obviously a stereotype and reek of hostility, they aren't baseless. Let's face it: some of the Western guys in Japan, especially those in the eikawa business, are young and well within their oat-sewing years. Back home, they often saw Japanese women presented as exotic geisha who existed to please men. Just like a woman arriving in a Latin country renown for its virile, passionate men, these young guys arrive in Japan hoping for some erotic experiences. Combine these factors with his inexperience with the sex politics in Japan, and the result is a young man drunk on his testosterone and exotic foreigner status.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying all Western guys with Japanese women are like this, but that some Western guys fit this pattern.

Being emotionally drunk is of course not an excuse for Western guys to snub the women of their race. Unfortunately, some people's philosophy seems to be, "if you can't eat it or f*** it, pee on it." That's too bad, because these guys probably don't realize how at home they become when chatting with a Western woman. No threading the intercultural needle, no having to explain things that get lost in the translation; just a nice chat with two people who share a common background. That common cultural and civilizational background means a lot.

[markosonlines]

Hey Vincs, use your disclaimer to the benefit of Japanese women also.

Petite, submissive, ego-stroking women who are good at playing on a guy's sexual, paternal, and power emotions. You make them sound like geisha afterall. We need to remember this is a visible minority that frequent bars, especially gaijin bars, and not a fair representation of Japanese ladies more generally.

[Vince]

[Capergirl]

[West Brom]

I don't know why women come to Japan. The situation will be completely reversed in Spain or Italy. There will be plenty of handsome men hoping to date English speaking women. Make sure you don't come out with bitter drivel such as "Western men in Japan, for some part, are rather deplorable creatures" while you're there. Why live here if you're just going to gripe about Western men all the time?

I wonder how many of the women slagging off Western men would love to be in the center of all the attention those men pay to Japanese women. In the absence of that, they hide behind the "he couldn't get a date in his own country" excuse.

Rockwolf, if I want to meet a Japanese girl I go to a bar frequented by Japanese women. That doesn't mean I ogle women in the bar. However, it would be rather unproductive to sit in a karaoke box with a handful of friends. Your classification of visible and invisible is far too simplistic.

[rockwolf]

[cafebleu]

I`m not getting on Nomadder`s case about generalisations she has made - and I`m not saying she has made only generalisations. But I will make some points that I hope contribute to the debate here. I think Nomadder`s friend is displaying the symptoms of one of the kinds of culture shock experienced in Japan.

Her friend is new to Japan, she has never worked in Japan before and therefore was not prepared to be a western woman in a country where most of the guys DO find Japanese women far more attractive than western women.

Maybe some of this woman`s male co-workers aren`t so bad but they are given to focusing on Japanese females and are so used to it that they appear rude to the newcomer western women. Combine that with the bad female boss and the isolation that greets many western newcomers to Japan, especially the isolation women experience, and you have such emails as the one Nomadder`s friend posted.

Sure, some western men go out of their way not to even look at western women. I don`t think anybody could argue against that - we`ve all seen it happen. But for every jerk (I`m talking about character and personality, not looks) who finds its easy to get a girlfriend (usually very compliant and happy to have a white man on her arm because if the Japanese girl/lady really cared about his character etc she wouldn`t be dating him), there are other men who genuinely enjoy the opportunities of living in Japan.

Including the chance to date Japanese women. Or to marry Japanese woman as happens every year. There are any number of marriages between Japanese women and western men in Japan and good luck to both partners. Where`s the law that says western men must be interested in western women because it`s not fair that they are missing out on being considered desirable when compared to Japanese women in many cases.

I can understand how difficult it is for western women in Japan. Many western men as I have said are interested in Japanese women and not them. It`s also hard, too, as the Japanese men seem to offer very little to foreign women except for the prospect of a nosey, harassing mother in law in too many cases, a limited married life where usually the western women is expected to make the career sacrificies etc, and have little companionship except with Japanese mothers who, sorry to say this, seem very precoccupied with trivia, snooping on each other (a kind of Japanese national pastime which is obvious if you`ve lived here some time), and wasting energy on making pathetic rules about the kids` playgroups etc in order to excercise control over each other and especially over a western women.

That is not the fault of western men. Nor is the fact that so few Japanese men seem to appeal to western women. In my time here I`ve talked to any number of western women who have told me they are not attracted to long-term relationships (or even short-term) with Japanese men. Their reasons?

One woman put it to me this way - why the hell would I want a relationship with a guy who lives at home even though he`s in his 20s, 30s, sometimes even 40s? He is not independent, he couldn`t begin to understand most western men and women who leave the family home and support themselves, usually in their 20s, at times even as late teenagers. He has an immature dependence on his mother whereas in western countries such over dependency is seen as weakness and inability to forge an identity for oneself.

She also said many foreign women she had talked to found Japanese men to be effete. She did not go for macho men herself but she found in general Japanese men seemed weak, and their chauvinism such as in grabbing seats ahead of women and pushing women out of the way in crowds etc was a sign of this weakness. The young or relatively young salaryman sitting down while the pregnant or disabled or old women stood up.

Her theory was that there seems to be quite a few repressed homosexual Japanese men among the ordinary male population, which is an interesting contrast to the over emphasis on getting married because `you have to` in Japanese society. That is her opinion - it is not necessarily mine. It may be true, it may not be, but in general her feeling was that she and her female friends find Japanese men weak and thus unattractive or unviable in terms of dating and relationships.

Yes, it is easier for western men in Japan.

[foster]

Well said cafebleu!!