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care less? (ll?)
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Quibby84



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you live in Japan, do you hate your life?

just curious...
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c-way



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While this thread seems about to wrap up, I just want to jump in here bc/ I too am a PT ALT at a high school, and I have the same problems.

And like many posters have advised, I came in with a strict policies and put my foot down from the beginning. But the culture of my school is an utter failure to the students and teachers alike. To give you an idea of how a failing school operates let me illustrate with some examples. So of you will be surprised, some not at all. But I myself was dismayed

* School starts at 8:40. Students are counted as "present" until 20 minutes after the late bell rings, making the unofficial start time of school 9:00. If a student should happen to miss this cutoff, they then have until 10:00 to avoid being marked absent for second period. Conceivably, a student could miss 40% of the school day and not suffer any penalty.

* There is an attendance policy that says that if a student misses more than 1/3 of all the lessons for a particular class, then they fail. Some students have met this requirement by the halfway point. Of course, there is no official policy that says the student must leave school once they have failed, giving them free reign at school. (Most leave though)

* To pass a particular class, students must receive a mark of 35% of the total points given. To move up to the next year, students must successfully complete 3 of 6 classes, one of which is PE. I give homework. About 3% of my students complete it. my class accounts for 5% of their overall grade.

* There is no detention. Students are not generally sent out of class for any reason. Student will be permitted to leave school unsupervised if they tell an assigned teacher that they are sick.

* Because there is no official discipline policy, when asked how they control their classes, many teachers told me that they "scold" their students for the bad behavior. I observe that once this "scolding" is completed, often with smiles from the teacher when being done, the behavior quickly resumes.

* Until a recently policy change, groups of students roamed the hall unchecked during class hours. It was usually the same clique of students and I observed teachers passing them in the hall without saying a word. The policy change was that teachers were sweeping the halls after the bell to make sure students were't waiting outside class until the last possible minute to be marked present. I saw a group of boys walk right through three of these teachers, who did not oppose them at the moment and looked to be intimidated.

* I myself confiscated cell phones, mirrors, and makeup, woke sleeping students, and silenced talking students when I first arrived. One student became so angry when a snoopy keychain broke when I confiscated his cell phone that he slammed his books repeatedly, spit on the floor and made gestures suggesting physical aggression. This and other problems led him to his parents being contacted, but insided school nothing really tangible occurred.

* I tore up another students manga books after he physically rebuked my JTE, who tried to confiscate the books. After I did so, he pushed me three times and when I ushered him out of class, he ripped my shirt. He was given an in school suspension for almost one month and is at risk of failing due to absence. When he doesn't show up on time, they send him home for the day.

* One fellow teacher was offered to a fight off-campus when he tried to assuage the students anger over a soccer game in PE class. That boy was not punished. He was told "not to use foul language".

So, all in all, my "push-through" school is a joke that makes a mockery of education. I've talked to many teachers who seemed dejected, others apathetic, others intimidated, and others still who plug along undeterred.

Authority is tacitly assumed by the students, who in some cases "permit" themselves to be educated. I say this because I still do have some classes that are largely successful. But if students one day decided "to hell with this", I would be largely powerless to do anything about it. Powerless because the administration here has decided to "weather" the students and only punish when it is absolutely necessary.

This may be making excuses, but I have to believe that even the best of teachers would be flustered and boxed-in in this kind of school environment.
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Sweetsee



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that C-way, enjoyed reading it. How about some of you others teaching in the schools here, how about sharing some of your stories? I'd like to share one that changed the way I feel about a particular teacher and the school in general. During the school festival I had to man the reception table and greet visitors as well as take the slippers from them when leaving. Teachers and students were on 2-hour shifts. During my shift there were about 6 students manning the table, signing-in visitors and at one point a student was asking the teacher in charge if she could be released to enjoy the festival with her friends. The teacher pointed out to her that everybody would like to do the same but that she must complete her duty, it had only been about 30 minutes into the shift. The student was bummed hearing this and returned to her place at the table, sitting sideways and placing her school bag on the table. The teacher then told her to take the bag off the table and the student continued to pout. Later, during the noon rush, I noticed that of the original students on duty, only two were manning the table, two very quiet students. Suddenly, another teacher shouted at me that I needed to be collecting the slippers from the guests leaving, lines began to form at the table and it was quite obvious that we were seriously under-staffed. Forgot to mention that prior to this, I saw the pouting girl return to the table with some friends thanking the teacher for releasing her. The teacher hushed her and told her to take-off. Seems that this teacher also pulled a runner because I saw her come back in a hurry later as we were swamped and had run out of needed supplies.
Anyway, sorry to bore you with this silly anecdote but now any time I hear this teacher admonishing any student for anything I can't help think of how cynical she is and what a joke the school is. That and most of the teachers allow the students free-reign in the classroom; sleeping, cell phones, print-club, yakking across the room, etc.
I honestly can't think of anything positive about this school and it is also a mockery of education and a complete disservice to the students.
Having said that I hope that all of you have a great teaching day today.
Enjoy,
s
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You are definitely losing it Glenski. You post random quotes taken out of context?(head shaking) Why don't you include who it was that advised me to care less?

Be careful what you ask for.

The saga all started here.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=36415&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

In reply to angrysoba's "Discipline in schools" thread, where AS asked, "How do you deal with students who refuse to do work? ", Sweetsee's very first post says,
Quote:
I can tell you Soba that no one has endured the abuse and hardship I suffered last year at school. In retrospect, I brought it upon myself...How do you deal with students who refuse to do work?...Let them be. Honestly, do yourself a favor and don't ever, ever, by any means, get involved in it.


He guessed wrong about someone else having problems and having won, thinking the person was in a public school. In response to this startling development, he then said,
Quote:
I would under no circumstances advocate getting invoved with discipline here.


A few posters talked about their experiences, and after canuck talked about having a plan of action, Sweetsee inserted foot into his mouth by saying,
Quote:
I would under no circumstances advocate getting invoved with discipline here.


A couple of other contributions by others, then Sweetsee writes this. Pay attention to the last sentence.
Quote:
How would it look if a foreign teacher in your homecountry attempted to discipline a student in methods never used there?
I just have to laugh when I read some of the previous posting, I guess if you have not been through what I endured you would never know. The idea that most students are looking to us to take care of discipline is ridiculous.

And then this whopper.
Quote:
I guess you have to learn these things for yourself, painful as it may be.
The last paragraph of your post Soba reminded me a lot of my thinking at the start of last year. All this business about being a teacher and good students and discipline and students behavior, that's all fine on your home turf.
Guess you just have to learn for yourself, don't listen to me. Wasn't it you Soba who asked for advice? Didn't I say it is illegal to boot kids from the room?
Here's a tip I got last year on this site: care less.


Whatever he posted in the next 3 posts within 6 minutes of each other, we'll never know, because he deleted it with an "embarrassment" smiley.

At this time, I entered the fray and agreed with others and chastised him for his "care less" remark.

No reply came of that, until this thread 8 months later. Sweetsee, your posts always end with "don't confront me with my failures, for I haven't forgotten them." What's the point?
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canuck



Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:
Quote:
You are definitely losing it Glenski. You post random quotes taken out of context?(head shaking) Why don't you include who it was that advised me to care less?

Be careful what you ask for.

The saga all started here.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=36415&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

In reply to angrysoba's "Discipline in schools" thread, where AS asked, "How do you deal with students who refuse to do work? ", Sweetsee's very first post says,
Quote:
I can tell you Soba that no one has endured the abuse and hardship I suffered last year at school. In retrospect, I brought it upon myself...How do you deal with students who refuse to do work?...Let them be. Honestly, do yourself a favor and don't ever, ever, by any means, get involved in it.


He guessed wrong about someone else having problems and having won, thinking the person was in a public school. In response to this startling development, he then said,
Quote:
I would under no circumstances advocate getting invoved with discipline here.


A few posters talked about their experiences, and after canuck talked about having a plan of action, Sweetsee inserted foot into his mouth by saying,
Quote:
I would under no circumstances advocate getting invoved with discipline here.


A couple of other contributions by others, then Sweetsee writes this. Pay attention to the last sentence.
Quote:
How would it look if a foreign teacher in your homecountry attempted to discipline a student in methods never used there?
I just have to laugh when I read some of the previous posting, I guess if you have not been through what I endured you would never know. The idea that most students are looking to us to take care of discipline is ridiculous.

And then this whopper.
Quote:
I guess you have to learn these things for yourself, painful as it may be.
The last paragraph of your post Soba reminded me a lot of my thinking at the start of last year. All this business about being a teacher and good students and discipline and students behavior, that's all fine on your home turf.
Guess you just have to learn for yourself, don't listen to me. Wasn't it you Soba who asked for advice? Didn't I say it is illegal to boot kids from the room?
Here's a tip I got last year on this site: care less.


Whatever he posted in the next 3 posts within 6 minutes of each other, we'll never know, because he deleted it with an "embarrassment" smiley.

At this time, I entered the fray and agreed with others and chastised him for his "care less" remark.

No reply came of that, until this thread 8 months later. Sweetsee, your posts always end with "don't confront me with my failures, for I haven't forgotten them." What's the point?


This post should be made a sticky.
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Gordon



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski, why bother even replying? He/she is not worth wasting time on.
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Sweetsee



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More harassment, more attack and more vindictive behavior from curly, moe and joe. The three of you together resemble every thing that is wrong with this place.

Each day is a new day, a chance for new beginnings, a chance to begin again.
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c-way



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan

PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that you guys have one-upped each other, can we get back to the topic at hand.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

c-way,
I think it's pointless to be involved in a serious discussion about discipline when the OP is a 16-year veteran of working in Japan and who cannot keep a consistent line of thought. You go ahead, though. I finished my thoughts on this discussion 8 months ago.
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furiousmilksheikali



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

c-way wrote:
While this thread seems about to wrap up, I just want to jump in here bc/ I too am a PT ALT at a high school, and I have the same problems.

And like many posters have advised, I came in with a strict policies and put my foot down from the beginning. But the culture of my school is an utter failure to the students and teachers alike. To give you an idea of how a failing school operates let me illustrate with some examples. So of you will be surprised, some not at all. But I myself was dismayed

* School starts at 8:40. Students are counted as "present" until 20 minutes after the late bell rings, making the unofficial start time of school 9:00. If a student should happen to miss this cutoff, they then have until 10:00 to avoid being marked absent for second period. Conceivably, a student could miss 40% of the school day and not suffer any penalty.

* There is an attendance policy that says that if a student misses more than 1/3 of all the lessons for a particular class, then they fail. Some students have met this requirement by the halfway point. Of course, there is no official policy that says the student must leave school once they have failed, giving them free reign at school. (Most leave though)

* To pass a particular class, students must receive a mark of 35% of the total points given. To move up to the next year, students must successfully complete 3 of 6 classes, one of which is PE. I give homework. About 3% of my students complete it. my class accounts for 5% of their overall grade.

* There is no detention. Students are not generally sent out of class for any reason. Student will be permitted to leave school unsupervised if they tell an assigned teacher that they are sick.

* Because there is no official discipline policy, when asked how they control their classes, many teachers told me that they "scold" their students for the bad behavior. I observe that once this "scolding" is completed, often with smiles from the teacher when being done, the behavior quickly resumes.

* Until a recently policy change, groups of students roamed the hall unchecked during class hours. It was usually the same clique of students and I observed teachers passing them in the hall without saying a word. The policy change was that teachers were sweeping the halls after the bell to make sure students were't waiting outside class until the last possible minute to be marked present. I saw a group of boys walk right through three of these teachers, who did not oppose them at the moment and looked to be intimidated.

* I myself confiscated cell phones, mirrors, and makeup, woke sleeping students, and silenced talking students when I first arrived. One student became so angry when a snoopy keychain broke when I confiscated his cell phone that he slammed his books repeatedly, spit on the floor and made gestures suggesting physical aggression. This and other problems led him to his parents being contacted, but insided school nothing really tangible occurred.

* I tore up another students manga books after he physically rebuked my JTE, who tried to confiscate the books. After I did so, he pushed me three times and when I ushered him out of class, he ripped my shirt. He was given an in school suspension for almost one month and is at risk of failing due to absence. When he doesn't show up on time, they send him home for the day.

* One fellow teacher was offered to a fight off-campus when he tried to assuage the students anger over a soccer game in PE class. That boy was not punished. He was told "not to use foul language".

So, all in all, my "push-through" school is a joke that makes a mockery of education. I've talked to many teachers who seemed dejected, others apathetic, others intimidated, and others still who plug along undeterred.

Authority is tacitly assumed by the students, who in some cases "permit" themselves to be educated. I say this because I still do have some classes that are largely successful. But if students one day decided "to hell with this", I would be largely powerless to do anything about it. Powerless because the administration here has decided to "weather" the students and only punish when it is absolutely necessary.

This may be making excuses, but I have to believe that even the best of teachers would be flustered and boxed-in in this kind of school environment.


This is a very good post as it gives a detailed description of the school and the discipline issues involved. You are right in saying that if the students decide to stage a full-scale mutiny then there is not a lot you can do about it. After all, as teachers it is our job to keep the students engaged in the lesson and we can't simply expect them to care. You are also correct in saying that some teachers are easily intimidated by the students and at other times it is difficult for even the best teachers to curtail the indiscipline.

Also I would like to add that if you are an ALT you should realize that some JTEs will see your class as their time to take a break. In some ways this can be frustrating as those JTEs are not likely to be much help if your lesson is in trouble. I think it is important to find out from the JTE in advance what your respective roles will be in the lesson. When I was an ALT I actually preferred the JTE to do very little, the JTEs who insisted on translating everything or repeating everything you say, providing a bad pronunciation model were the worst type of teachers to work with. The teacher who sits at the back of class poring over their notes, as Sweetsee described were the best type (for me).

C-way, it seems that you take a pro-active approach in your lesson and this is preferable to the "care less" approach.

I've known a number of ALTs who have said that it's not their job to discipline the students but whether this is true or not it is useless to assume that someone else will do it or that you will never need to discipline students. But if you have a lesson in which there is less time for the students to get bored then you have a much greater chance of keeping the students from being disruptive. An important way of doing this is to simply plan more activities or use some stock favourites that have worked previously. If the students start to look like getting bored then you can switch activities quickly.

Another important thing to do is to change the seating arrangements. This can be done to keep the known troublemakers from congregating and to give yourself an impression of control. It also changes the atmosphere of the class and leads the students into thinking that your lesson isn't just another lesson like all the other boring ones that they disrupt. Also getting the students to move around the class is good for a lot of them who hate to spend the whole lesson sitting down when they're not at a good age for doing so. One way that I do this is to assign each student a letter A,B,C,D etc... and then periodically get all A students to stand up and rotate around the class two places or three places so that they are constantly changing partners.

I think that no matter how good or bad each school is you have to have a number of strategies. If you go into class thinking that it's a bad class and without any expectation of controlling it then you are already dead in the water.
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furiousmilksheikali



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweetsee wrote:
More harassment, more attack and more vindictive behavior from curly, moe and joe. The three of you together resemble every thing that is wrong with this place.



Good from you Sweetsee.

MOD EDIT
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Sweetsee



Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything

PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post Ali, now we're getting somewhere.
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c-way



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think that no matter how good or bad each school is you have to have a number of strategies. If you go into class thinking that it's a bad class and without any expectation of controlling it then you are already dead in the water.


I think that's a really important point that I've started to let slip as the Students in bad classes wear me out.

But with that in mind, I often feel like even if I brought Universal Studios into my classroom, these kids would not raise an eyebrow. If it's education related and being presented by an educator, it is not interesting by proxy. I don't just not expect them to care, I strongly expect them NOT to care. But having strategies nevertheless is essential.

What I find myself instead focusing on before I go into some of these bad classes is trying to keep an unconditional positive regard for even the worst of kids. Some teachers may disagree, but I still find that it's important to understand that these kids act the way they do largely for reasons that are external to them and largely out of their control.
These included, but are not limited to: Family history, academic achievement level and the attitude toward education that stems from that, self-esteem etc.

Another point I forgot to mention is that a large percentage of my students come from single parent households (One reliable teacher quoted 1/3). How do you think that affects a child's sense of discipline?

So what do you guys think of this strategy.

In my worst classes, where the students have more or less claimed victory over myself and my JTE in the class control department, I now find myself shortening the lesson the class in general and giving out worksheets for all to do. While the students are doing (or not doing, or copying) the worksheets, I focus in on the students whom I know want to learn what I'm teaching and I practice speaking with them only. The other students don't seem to mind, and because there is usually raucous going on in the class, these sometimes shy students feel more comfortable and will practice quietly with me. For the rest I tune them out to about the same degree that they have tuned me out.

I figure my efforts are wasted on these other kids and instead of spending my class pursuing their challenges to my and the JTE's authority, I cater to the small portion of students who are still willing to engage the lesson in such an environment.

Am I shirking my duties by not really even attempting to educate these other kids, or am I getting lemons and making lemonade?
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furiousmilksheikali



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you that if you can find the students who you know want to learn then you can make sure your lessons accommodate them. Though peer pressure is an important factor too. Some of your students who want to learn won't want to make that clear.
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bornslippy1981



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quibby84 wrote:
When you live in Japan, do you hate your life?

just curious...


No.
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