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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Maybe the good teachers so badly exploited by Chinese employers were a majority of FTs in some past period; these days there are fewer instances of egregiously bad treatment of FTs byChinese, say what you want but that can hardlybe disproved by any stats. If you really get shafted or contractual obligations on the part of the employer ignored you can often get redress, which was far less likely in the past.
Maybe the improving employee rights of FTs have turned them into a rowdy bunch of vociferating, permanently disgruntled complainers. No wonder some of them actually prompt some Chinese to honour these foreign claims by living up to those claims of mistreating foreigners. It's a little like self-suggestion - the more often you claim it is happening the more likely it reallydoes happen. |
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WordUp
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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It seems that the people who vent are the ones who did the least amount of research and got themselves in the most amount of trouble.. They're negative.. they are unhappy.. insatiably unhappy.. Let them vent their negativity elsewhere, this is an advice board not a psych101 for deranged ESL board zealots..
The people who can't make it in China cannot make it anywhere. Chinas their final horizon.. if they don't breach their contract, they'll return to the states and settle into a cushy walmart job only to gab to their 16-year old co-workers about how cool they were because they went and lived in China for three months. . and when that novelty wears thin.. They can rail against the management about how Walmart doesn't pay a fair wage. .
Sad prognosis includes alcoholism and homelessness..
F- the negative trolls on this board.. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe the good teachers so badly exploited by Chinese employers were a majority of FTs in some past period; these days there are fewer instances of egregiously bad treatment of FTs byChinese |
now this is statement that can only be taken seriously if backed up by a few reliable statistics or two - which of course Steppenwolf will supply in his next post - and of course since China is such a large country I'd be satisfied if you could merely give us some convincing evidence from around your own locality 
and this statement from WordUp -
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| It seems that the people who vent are the ones who did the least amount of research and got themselves in the most amount of trouble.. They're negative.. they are unhappy.. insatiably unhappy.. Let them vent their negativity elsewhere, this is an advice board not a psych101 for deranged ESL board zealots.. |
How on earth do you know this - what about the employers - do they bare no guilt??? WordUp - taking your post seriously would be to except a whitewash of the real situation that many encounter out here - since no amount of research can prepare you for some of the surprises that may pop up - and no amount of positive thinking can brush aside the feeling of being cheated and exploited - research and positive thinking an insurance to satisfaction in a free-for-all money grabbing industry where enforcement of very lax regulation seems to be rather laxidasical to say the least - don't make me laugh. But then again you claim to be a lawyer - so a whitewashing may be something that sometimes crops in your profession  |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ignore that fact that this industry isn't just your personal vehicle taking you to the good-life, but also one where we should take a wee bit of responsibility in showing solidarity to fellow workers by at least highlighting its deficiencies and pitfalls - I'd be rather nervous to take over one of your jobs if you really were saying, you believe, that your good life rights all wrongs that are associated with it - god knows what would lie in store |
I ain't Superman. I'm not even a DoS anymore. As a DoS, it was my job to take up for the teachers and care about their well-being and happiness. As well, it was my job to take up for the management, depending on who was the most right. It was, in my experience, about 50-50 over all.
But as a teacher? This industry is indeed my personal vehicle to a good life. Why not? Sure, I care if others around me get screwed, because I want to know that the people I work for won't do such a thing to me, later. But it's not any concern of mine at all if YOU are unhappy or have a bad experience. I take care of me. Who else will? YOU?? I'm not big on solidarity, especially when 99% of the people who complain are doing so about things that don't concern them, or about things with which I simply don't see as a problem.
I had a colleague just today try to get me into a big battle over what he reckoned should not stand - we have a class room within a classroom, so that when the inside class goes out, it can disrupt the outside class. Sure, not ideal, but if the students don't care enough about it to complain, what does it have to do with me? I just don't care. I know from past experience that you will jump on me for not caring, but really, I don't have or want to care about EVERYTHING.
You people act as though it's your personal job to right every conceivable injustice, and I just prefer to enjoy my good fortune. So don't take a job near me if that's so repulsive. But I'll tell you what - you are not going to be satisfied, ever, because you think we should all look out for one another like in some ideal dream world, and it's a dream world that will never exist in a human society. I don't even WISH for that dream. I'm perfectly happy with the way things are.
I stand by what I said. Living and working in China is not such a bad way to live your life. Just concentrate on the living and the working. China is not some beast from which newbies, or anyone, else need to be protected.
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| Maybe the good teachers so badly exploited by Chinese employers were a majority of FTs in some past period; these days there are fewer instances of egregiously bad treatment of FTs byChinese |
now this is statement that can only be taken seriously if backed up by a few reliable statistics or two |
Don't be absurd. We don't need no stinkin' stats. Either it's true or it isn't. Steppenwolf sees it like that, and I do as well. Who CARES whether you agree? It's a forum, not the CIA Factsheet. The whole point is that many of us feel comfortable living and working here, and trust the people we are asked to trust (i.e. our employers). That's it. You'll be no more cheated here than in your own country. Sure, it can happen. But if you are a reasonable person, with reasonable expectations, and you read people fairly well, you'll be fine. And if something happens, you just deal with it. No solidarity crap. You do your gig and I'll do mine and I'll thank everyone to let me worry about my own self. We don't need you or some teachers' union or something to set things right. Why do you feel this is necessary, or even desirable?
And twisting my words to sound bad or imply that I'm bad or wrong is nothing but rhetoric. Doesn't change the message or my experience. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Why not? Sure, I care if others around me get screwed, because I want to know that the people I work for won't do such a thing to me, later. But it's not any concern of mine at all if YOU are unhappy or have a bad experience. I take care of me. Who else will? YOU?? I'm not big on solidarity, especially when 99% of the people who complain are doing so about things that don't concern them, or about things with which I simply don't see as a problem |
well there you have it folks - not much positive attitude there - more like dog eat dog - take what you can get and to hell with 99% of the others. And this from the person who so passionately defends the character of this industry 
By the way Gregor those sentiments seem to describe a few of the workplaces you can find out here - newbies beware
Just for the record I would like to state that I have never advocated the absurd idea of a union - which of course is an impossible pipe-dream - I just simply want potential FT's to go into this business with their eyes open - deter those who think this job is such a piece of cake that they come out here with unreal expectations - and challenge those who allow themselves to be exploited, or indeed even aid this process. I beleive this may be the kind of positive attitude that could really help the China FT lifestyle -after all if we don't help ourselves, who will  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:05 am Post subject: |
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Common sense shows that working as an English teacher in China is not as bad as some people would have newbies believe it to be. The fact is that at any one time there are probably around five to six thousand foreign teachers, at least, working in various types of schools all around the country. Of those, less than 1% each year would take the time to write about their experiences here.
Human nature dictates that people complain far more often than they compliment and therefore there should be a tendency towards complaints here, which there obviously is.
Interestingly, but certainly unfortunately, there seems to be an unwavering acceptance here for complaints about schools whereas when someone says something nice about a school they get accused of working for the school or having a vested interest. This is counterproductive as it discourages people from posting about positive experience and just perpetuates the myths. I don't think that it is by accident that certain members of this forum are guilty of the above!
The notable thing is that the far majority of complaints are made by teachers working here illegally. So the first rule in avoiding problems is to avoid working illegally.
The second thing of note when it comes to complaints is that most of them are of a personal nature. This does not invalidate them of course, but it does call into question their value for others. I am referring to complaints such as 'the students were too rowdy/too quiet', 'the class sizes were too big/too small', 'time off was too little/too much', 'the school had no curriculum/a fixed curriculum', 'the school administration was too tough/too apathetic' etc. Everyone has different expectations and just because a school does not meet the expectations of that teacher doesn't mean that another teacher won't find them a perfect fit.
Most notable of all however are the distinct lack of serious complaints. What I mean by this is schools that employ but don't pay a teacher for legitimate work done. Schools that offer positions to teachers but renege at the last moment with no good reason. Schools that treat a teacher illegally.
The key to finding a good school in China is research. The more you prepare yourself the far less likely it is that you will find yourself in a bad situation.
In answer to the question of statistics to prove a point well I guess that this could go two ways - why not provide statistics that prove that China is such a dangerous place for foreign teachers? |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Just for the record I would like to state that I have never advocated the absurd idea of a union - which of course is an impossible pipe-dream - I just simply want potential FT's to go into this business with their eyes open - deter those who think this job is such a piece of cake that they come out here with unreal expectations - and challenge those who allow themselves to be exploited, or indeed even aid this process. I beleive this may be the kind of positive attitude that could really help the China FT lifestyle -after all if we don't help ourselves, who will |
Nicely said and I must agree.
But by the same token, I'd say that we should stay away from our personal attacks at each other on forums when they are unnecessary. Further more, bringing in our self-centered agendas without introducing our sources of info or our sources of experiences does not help, does it?
Then, expanding endlessly on topics we might not know much about carries rather serious consequences to the forums readers, doesn't it?
I am not saying that I am not guilty (darn double negative right there  ), however I am just trying to raise some awareness on here that our approach is at times unreasonable and that's all. 
Peace to our forums
and
cheers and beers to all hard working FTs in China  |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Common sense shows that working as an English teacher in China is not as bad as some people would have newbies believe it to be |
If the opening statement of Clark's post is the foundation on which he bases his recommendation for working in China - then newbies beware
After all - what kind of common sense are we talking about - can the common sense of people living thousands of miles away from china really be used to judge the reality of working conditions of the FT
And that slight question of belief - nobody is asking any newbies to believe in some out of this world concept - just that in taking heed of the many stories regarding the difficulties encountered by FT's are not something that completely lie in the realms of fantasy but are often real, and at best can act as tales of warning for the unwary - now that's not so hard to believein, is it - just take a look in archives of Dave's if you think I'm having you on!!!
But then again people like Clark explain this away by saying that folk only write to complain not compliment. Okay lets ignore the obvious and ask Clark on what evidence relating to working as a China FT he bases this supposition - and go back and cast a critical eye of over many of those old posts - and you know what there are so many positive posts out there - positive about living in China - but so often with that huge "proviso" - despite the problems encountered being a China FT (and by the way Clark if you try to dispute that - try somehow proving you complain/compliment post theory first)
and what are those problems -
> contracts that are welshed on by employers - FT's also welshing, which adds to that feeling that contract is often virtually worthless here!
> lack of on the job help given to many - often totally non-experienced unqualified - FT's
> sudden changes in work schedule - where suddenly you find you have to take on more hours - sometimes with no extra pay
> that problem of who do you go to if the shiite really hits the fan - the PSB (the police charged with FT matters) sometimes don't seem to be that responsive to FT troubles - and your embassies or consulates are often far away and will usually just tell you to go back home if the going gets really bad.
The list could go on and on - and doesn't even include those gripes that concern the long-termer FT's, like me - those poor wages that ultimately can threaten all our lifestyles - and those often laughable employer/employee relationships we sometimes find ourselves in - the ones that sometimes leave us thinking that our bosses almost believe that they own us!!! No amount of research and no amount of positive attitude can save you from these kind of China problems - problems which can only be worsened (and certainly not bettered) by a - roll up roll up, the great China FT extravaganza is now on - get your ticket while it lasts - all that's needed is good dose of positive attitude and a bit of positive research which ignores all them whinger types because 99% are negative losers - approach to attracting new "talent" to this teaching arena.
Come on lads who does this help - you think that'll really do any good for us FT whether we be newbies or vets - the bosses and recruiters will be set gain most from this situation - wont they "buxiban" clark, "journey east" wordup and "EF" gregor |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: |
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During the time I've been in China I've done 2 contracts at 2 seperate schools and I'm currently working on my 3rd at another school which thus far has also been a positive experience. So far Rogers batt'in a 1000 on the positive side.
Stop whin'in, friggin Troll!! |
I'm well into that 4th year with my employers - but that doesn't make right all the bad FT situations I heard about during my time in China - and it certainly doesn't wash any errant bosses squeeky clean of their ESL industry related sins
As for the troll bit - if you want to shut me up then you'll have to add a bit of convincing argument to this debate
And that long lost poster Roger - just try looking through his archive of posts to judge his battin average |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| After all - what kind of common sense are we talking about - can the common sense of people living thousands of miles away from china really be used to judge the reality of working conditions of the FT |
In your haste to make another of what you no doubt to consider to be witty replies, you have once again missed the point.
I was clearly referring to one using common sense in realizing that the 'complaints' that are made are obviously only one small part of the story here.
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| But then again people like Clark explain this away by saying that folk only write to complain not compliment. |
Misquoting me again vikdk. It really doesn't add to your arguments when you do this.
My point is very clear and is a well known fact whether you choose to accept it or not. People do complain more than they compliment. This said we can probably expect to see three or perhaps four times more complaints than compliments about any one school to come out balanced. More legitimate complaints than that would indicate a problem at a school, less than that would not make it possible to make a judgement either way.
With the exception of a handful of schools and recruiters there are really very, very few examples of truely bad schools here and this is borne out by what I wrote above.
I have not said that complaints are invalid, I have merely pointed out that they need to be taken with a grain of salt. And that is where common sense comes in.
| vikdk wrote: |
| you know what there are so many positive posts out there - positive about living in China - but so often with that huge "proviso" - despite the problems encountered being a China FT (and by the way Clark if you try to dispute that - try somehow proving you complain/compliment post theory first) |
So what exactly is your point? This is a board for English teachers in China so we are only going to hear about the experiences of English teachers in China. Are you seriously suggesting that this is the only industry that employs foreigners here that attracts complaints? I can assure you that it is not and if you delve further into other industry specific boards then you will find the same sorts of complaints there.
Another thing worthy of mention here is that you could visit any of the discussion forums here at Daves and find the same types of complaints in every country. It obviously has nothing to do with the country, but instead the teacher. And this is what brings us back to the whole point of the above posts which suggest that your experience in China (just as anywhere in the world) will only be as good as you allow it to be! Again that is common sense that anyone can understand even if they have never been out of their own country.
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and what are those problems -
> contracts that are welshed on by employers - FT's also welshing, which adds to that feeling that contract is often virtually worthless here! |
This is only a legitimate problem for teachers who are not working here legally - hence my comment about this earlier.
Legal teachers (Z visa for teaching purposes) can approach the government for assistance. Things work very differently from back home so you cannot expect the officers to jump up and pursue things for you, you need to push them. But there is a system and it does work if you know the laws and how the system works. This is where research is essential and any suggestion otherwise is ridiculous.
The interesting thing about comments such as what vikdk makes here about there being no system, are always made by individuals who have never tested the system. Vikdk, what attempts have you made to pursue a legal employer who did not fulfill their part of the contract?
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| > lack of on the job help given to many - often totally non-experienced unqualified - FT's |
How is that the schools fault? You are a teacher getting paid to teach, you're not getting paid to be taught how to teach!
If you have no experience then you have no place applying for a job that requires experience (and possibly offers more bucks)! Inexperienced teachers who are concerned about this fact would be far better off starting out in a chain school that offers a fixed curriculum, training, teacher support etc. There are plenty of these types of schools out there and a bit of research would enable one to learn which type of school is best suited to him/her and how to find these schools.
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| > sudden changes in work schedule - where suddenly you find you have to take on more hours - sometimes with no extra pay |
Again a bit of research would have helped you avoid this kind of problem. Good schools have good, clear contracts that state the work hours, number of teaching hours each week, and the overtime rates of pay. Legal schools are required as part of their licencing to outline these.
Once again most of the problems with this occur for teachers who are working illegally on tourist or business person visas. Work illegally at your own peril, and once again a bit of research would have taught you this!
| vikdk wrote: |
| > that problem of who do you go to if the shiite really hits the fan - the PSB (the police charged with FT matters) sometimes don't seem to be that responsive to FT troubles - and your embassies or consulates are often far away and will usually just tell you to go back home if the going gets really bad. |
Again, not a problem for legal teachers in legal schools as SAFEA overseas these schools. First point of call could be your PSB if it is convenient to you and then SAFEA if you don't get the results that you wanted. I reiterate that it is no cake-walk getting the assistance that you need from sometimes apathetic individuals in these organizations but you can get what you want if you truely want it.
As far as involving embassies and consulates well that is just plain naieve advice. Embassies and consulates clearly state in their work protocols that they do not get involved in civil disputes in foreign countries. The most help that the consulate will be if you have a problem with an employer is point you toward a list of contacts for relevant authorities or lawyers. They will not get involved in any meaningful way as they have no authority here nor desire to get involved. Suggesting otherwise is just misleading and gives a false sense of hope.
| vikdk wrote: |
| The list could go on and on - and doesn't even include those gripes that concern the long-termer FT's, like me - those poor wages that ultimately can threaten all our lifestyles |
We all have gripes but these are not always legitimate complaints. Far too many teachers complain about such things as the low wages at the school that they work at - well why take the job if the wages are not enough for you? I never understood the logic here. If in your opinion you are worth more then get off your ass and go out a get a job that pays you what you think you are worth. If you don't want to do this for whatever excuse you may have then don't gripe about it!
I have already conceeded that some people don't enjoy their times here, but that does not make the school automatically at fault nor does it mean that a different teacher in exactly the same position would feel the same way.
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| No amount of research and no amount of positive attitude can save you from these kind of China problems |
I totally disagree with this statement.
Research and preparing oneself for anything in life is the best way to avoid trouble and be in the best possible position to deal with the unexpected when it arrives. Knowing the relevant laws, knowing what constitutes legal work, knowing what to look out for, and knowing which companies to work for and which ones to avoid all come from research.
Vikdk I would be interested to know what you recommend teachers do to avoid trouble in China? Other than not coming here in the first place - which I can only guess you attempt to do to ensure that you see no competition from newcomers from whatever job it is that you have.
| vikdk wrote: |
| Come on lads who does this help - you think that'll really do any good for us FT whether we be newbies or vets - the bosses and recruiters will be set gain most from this situation - wont they "buxiban" clark, "journey east" wordup and "EF" gregor |
You must be in a pretty sad situation vikdk if you feel that you have not benefited from being here in China and it sort of calls into question why you remain here if you feel this way.
China is not the sort of place that you come to if your only aim is to get rich. You can however earn and save a decent amount of money if this is one of your aims. More importantly though it is an experience and this is where keeping a positive attitude will determine whether your time here is worthwhile or not.
Vikdk you continually make mention of the involvements of myself, Gregor, and wordup in other enterprises as if this is a bad thing which is really kind of pathetic.
I am involved with a site that archives reviews about schools and recruiters in China so I therefore have a pretty good working knowledge of what many schools and recruiters are really like - both good and bad.
Gregor worked for one of the largest chain schools in China and as such has a good working knowledge of that school and an applicable knowledge of chain schools in China in general.
Wordup, I believe, has a relationship to a foreign teacher recruitment company and therefore has an inner working knowledge of recruitment.
Most importantly though, we all offer information here, whereas you don't. Vikdk why do you feel so threatened by the fact that others have knowledge that you simply don't have, and why do you feel the need to try to bring others down for having this knowledge? The more you post on this forum the more I think that you really need to find yourself.
Vikdk there are three questions in bold text in my post that I would be interested to see your answers to, but I am sure that as usual you will instead ignore these and just post something 'witty' and with lots of emoticons! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I was clearly referring to one using common sense in realizing that the 'complaints' that are made are obviously only one small part of the story here. |
but they are part of the story - even you can't hide that - a part that really shouldn't be ignored or brushed aside
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| With the exception of a handful of schools and recruiters there are really very, very few examples of truly bad schools here and this is borne out by what I wrote above. |
Does anything you wrote actually prove that!!! That's just as absurd as me writing there are more bad so-called schools than so-called good ones - since all I can prove is that there are many complaints against ESL employers in china and the general conditions of work here - complaints that should be taken very seriously by anyone considering work in this field
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| I have not said that complaints are invalid, I have merely pointed out that they need to be taken with a grain of salt. And that is where common sense comes in. |
if complaints should be taken with a grain of salt why shouldn't glowing recommendations also be taken the same way - after all recruiters or employers getting onto these boards as posters might have reason to write such posts in their attempts to attract new teachers - and you know this sometimes happens don't you Clark. But then again those of us who are here and who actually talk to fellow FT's can recognise many of the horror stories posted here - we know of the high jinks that go on this trade - don't we
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| This is a board for English teachers in China so we are only going to hear about the experiences of English teachers in China. Are you seriously suggesting that this is the only industry that employs foreigners here that attracts complaints? I can assure you that it is not and if you delve further into other industry specific boards then you will find the same sorts of complaints there. |
just because bad stuff goes on in other industries does that excuse what goes on in ours Are you suggesting its okay to be exploited as FT because you may be exploited in whatever profession you chose to take over here Are you suggesting that we in China should shut up just because problems occur in other countries - what kind of logic is this
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| Legal teachers (Z visa for teaching purposes) can approach the government for assistance. Things work very differently from back home so you cannot expect the officers to jump up and pursue things for you, you need to push them. But there is a system and it does work if you know the laws and how the system works. |
Clark - those of us at ground zero know that this can persual of justice can be a very difficult practice - and hardly any vets are naive enough not realise that connections and "red-envelopes" (under the table payments) so often count for so much more than a just case
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| How is that the schools fault? You are a teacher getting paid to teach, you're not getting paid to be taught how to teach! |
so why on earth do you say that the only qualification needed by an FT is a good personality - do you want me to re hash a quote for a post of yours from the past - if you and others are always encouraging the unqualified teacher to take a shot at this job, then the least you can do is also encourage a bit of on the job training
By the way folks - even qualified experienced teachers - need a bit of re training in there period of tuning in to local conditions - Im sure most of the experienced FT's will back me up on this one.
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| Inexperienced teachers who are concerned about this fact would be far better off starting out in a chain school that offers a fixed curriculum, training, teacher support etc. There are plenty of these types of schools out there and a bit of research would enable one to learn which type of school is best suited to him/her and how to find these schools. |
according to a few posts here some of the training in these types of school may also be a little on the light side - newbies just sift through the archives � and again beware of anything called training � you�ll also stand a good chance of actually being in sole charge of your own classes within a week or so of starting!!!
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| Good schools have good, clear contracts that state the work hours, number of teaching hours each week, and the overtime rates of pay. Legal schools are required as part of their licencing to outline these. |
Clark - an employers version of legal can certainly make for interesting situations - in a country where gaunxi rules supreme
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| Vikdk why do you feel so threatened by the fact that others have knowledge that you simply don't have, and why do you feel the need to try to bring others down for having this knowledge? |
Why on earth do you think I feel threatened in the manner you suggest - are you try to coerce me into shutting my mouth - I'm not trying to bring anyone down - I'm just stating my version of the truth - a truth completely "unblemished" by any connection with recruiting or large teaching organisations |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:52 am Post subject: |
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Vikdk has painted himself into an extremist corner long, long ago and he likes being the otusider rapping at the windows, trying to rattle the bones of those dancing inside. His points are sharp only for those who have an euqally warped sense of reality. He is a bad-mouther.
The truth is that as many people in western countries have gripes about their working situation and working conditions; how many of their issues get addrwessed? Not more than here - because many exist mainly in their imagiation. Some simply want to be victims of grave innustice so they colour their stories a bit and get attention from their comrades-in-arms - purpose?
Yes, we enjoy little protection here, but we are on the whole a relatively well-treated lot. Of course, it also depends on what you have to offer your employer. The sort of attitude that vikdk exhibits won't lead you far. And why should we sympathise with people who take confrontational attitudes to their employer and colleagues, then start whining about the fall-out? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| Vikdk has painted himself into an extremist corner long, long ago and he likes being the otusider rapping at the windows, trying to rattle the bones of those dancing inside. His points are sharp only for those who have an euqally warped sense of reality. He is a bad-mouther. |
what ever I am - or have been - has virtually nothing to do with the over all situation FT's find themselves in when working in China (maybe the odd recruiter or employer reading these forums may once in a blue moon take heed - and hopefully a few newbies have been made aware of another way of viewing this workplace) - but to use line of argument this as an opening statement for discussion on FT conditions in China - seems to be a rather immature logic - something akin to mindless name calling. But carry on if you want - since I think it makes my posts look all the more impressive in comparison
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| The truth is that as many people in western countries have gripes about their working situation and working conditions; how many of their issues get addrwessed? Not more than here - because many exist mainly in their imagiation. Some simply want to be victims of grave innustice so they colour their stories a bit and get attention from their comrades-in-arms - purpose? |
western country or China - just tell this to someone who has been cheated out of a bonus (you want me to re-hash some posts on that subject) - is that feeling of being cheated and losing money just a hallucination. You don't have to be "a red under the bed" to get riled-up over that
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| Yes, we enjoy little protection here, but we are on the whole a relatively well-treated lot. Of course, it also depends on what you have to offer your employer |
Well there you have it folks - to have it good here (at least in the workplace) we have to rely a lot on the benign nature of our employer - good to see you agree with me Steppenwolf - but the Clark Grisswald Chap won't be too happy with your statement - you better go after him Clark
Last edited by vikdk on Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:41 am; edited 4 times in total |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| More often, though, bad things happen to BAD people, and the good ones - the ones with a good attitude - get through it with a generally positive experience. |
i would alter this statement to incl. this disclaimer...
Yea, bad things happen to bad people, everywhere else in the world..but in china.... positive experiences happen to bad people that have a good attitude..that is what makes this a fun place to live and a great place for bad people to go...like I said before ..the country is open to the nomad... |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: |
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As expected vikdk has failed to answer the specific and relevant questions I raised and this is one of the reasons that I tend not to discuss many things with him any more which is a shame as it is sometimes good to have people with different points of view discuss a subject.
| vikdk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I was clearly referring to one using common sense in realizing that the 'complaints' that are made are obviously only one small part of the story here. |
but they are part of the story - even you can't hide that - a part that really shouldn't be ignored or brushed aside |
Please point out where anyone on this board has suggested that complaints should be ignored!! I am involved with a site that archives such complaints so that pretty much nixes this silly suggestion of yours.
What we are saying is that just because someone complains does not mean that there is a legitimate problem with a school. What you seem to be suggesting is that because there are complaints then there must be problems. I disagree.
| vikdk wrote: |
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| With the exception of a handful of schools and recruiters there are really very, very few examples of truly bad schools here and this is borne out by what I wrote above. |
Does anything you wrote actually prove that!!! |
How does one prove something that doesn't exist?
The logical thing for you to do here would be to prove me wrong and show us all that in fact there are many examples of truly bad schools. I look forward to your reply on this one as this would be helpful. I know that you won't do this however as:
a) I know that I am correct on this from my experience archiving reviews;
b) I know that it is not in your nature to actually add anything to this forum as you just like to troll.
I invite you to prove me wrong however.
| vikdk wrote: |
| That's just as absurd as me writing there are more bad so-called schools than so-called good ones - since all I can prove is that there are many complaints against ESL employers in china and the general conditions of work here - complaints that should be taken very seriously by anyone considering work in this field |
So why not list the type of complaints that you are referring to and why you consider these to be valid warnings for newbies. Again, this would be adding something to this forum rather than your standard practice of just trying to be a troll. I think that you don't do this as by taking a stand and making such a definitive post you would be leaving yourself vulnerable to the sorts of posts that you make against others. But again I welcome you to prove me wrong.
| vikdk wrote: |
| if complaints should be taken with a grain of salt why shouldn't glowing recommendations also be taken the same way |
You really have a warped sense of logic vikdk. We were discussing complaints hence the sentence you have quoted above refers to complaints. How does that make it automatically exclusive of applying to compliments? Did I say that it does not also apply to compliments?
The fact is that I recommend research. You suggest that research won't help. Research goes two ways and would help to expose frivilous complaints just as it would false compliments. Again - common sense.
| vikdk wrote: |
| just because bad stuff goes on in other industries does that excuse what goes on in ours |
| vikdk wrote: |
| Are you suggesting its okay to be exploited as FT because you may be exploited in whatever profession you chose to take over here |
| vikdk wrote: |
| Are you suggesting that we in China should shut up just because problems occur in other countries - what kind of logic is this |
Further examples of ridiculous logic and your propensity to troll.
Nowhere in any of my posts have I suggested any of these things and you are just avoiding the main point of discussion here which is childish.
| vikdk wrote: |
| Clark - those of us at ground zero know that this can persual of justice can be a very difficult practice - and hardly any vets are naive enough not realise that connections and "red-envelopes" (under the table payments) so often count for so much more than a just case |
That is just a cop out used by people who don't have the determination and will to stand up for their rights. As long as you choose to continue being a victim you will be - that's guaranteed.
You failed to answer my earlier question about your experiences with pursuing your rights when wronged by a legal employer.
| vikdk wrote: |
| so why on earth do you say that the only qualification needed by an FT is a good personality - do you want me to re hash a quote for a post of yours from the past - if you and others are always encouraging the unqualified teacher to take a shot at this job, then the least you can do is also encourage a bit of on the job training |
Again, ridicluous logic and not something that I have suggested.
If you want on the job training then there are schools out there that offer this. As per my last post research will reveal which schools offer this. Interestingly one of the schools that you are very critical of even though you have not worked there yourself does exactly this!! Kind of questions your credibility there vikdk.
If a qualified and experienced teacher wants to take a job without on the job training and in return get paid what they feel they deserve then why shouldn't they be allowed to do this?
It is up to the individual teacher to be responsible for his or her own choices in this regard and we should put a stop to the immature attitude that employers owe us more than what we get paid to do.
| vikdk wrote: |
| By the way folks - even qualified experienced teachers - need a bit of re training in there period of tuning in to local conditions - Im sure most of the experienced FT's will back me up on this one. |
So if you feel that you could do with more training then choose a job at a school that offers this, or invest in a course.
| vikdk wrote: |
| according to a few posts here some of the training in these types of school may also be a little on the light side |
First you complain about schools that don't have on the job training and then you complain about the ones that do. This is exactly what I mean when I say that not every complaint is worth listening to.
Why not put your money where your mouth is and start your own school vikdk?
| vikdk wrote: |
| Clark - an employers version of legal can certainly make for interesting situations - in a country where gaunxi rules supreme |
Who cares what the employer thinks is legal or not? They don't make nor enforce the laws. You should try to resolve any dispute with your employer first. If that doesn't work then you have three choices:
1. Suck it up;
2. Come here to eslcafe and whinge and whine about how unfair everything is;
3. take action and get your entitlements
Choice is yours.
| vikdk wrote: |
| Why on earth do you think I feel threatened in the manner you suggest - are you try to coerce me into shutting my mouth - I'm not trying to bring anyone down - I'm just stating my version of the truth - a truth completely "unblemished" by any connection with recruiting or large teaching organisations |
If I wanted you to be quiet then I wouldn't be asking you questions
So if what you write is the 'unblemished truth' then prove it. |
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