Job Discussion Forums

[MAstudent]

Cleo: �Saudi culture does not come pre-packaged in a little box: like anywhere else, there are both conservative and progressive elements in KSA - Al Y college, judging by their advertising and reputation, is clearly positioning itself in the latter camp.�

I would like to thank you for raising an interesting debate here.

Firstly, who are the progressives? What�s the definition of a progressive person? Is it someone who wants Saudi to become more Western? Is it to strip the people of their culture, religion, ethics, morals and code of life? At the same time what do you mean by conservative? Anti-Western? Anti-UK,US, Europe etc.? What do you mean, please define your terms. Immediately by describing the groups with these words you have created, as the media do, a negative image of the first group (conservatives) and a positive image of the second (progressives) without allowing the reader the opportunity to evaluate for himself.

Secondly, should an educational institution place itself politically? Should it take on the society around it? Is this its function? I thought it was in the business of educating, to help students to think critically, reason and gain access to other forms of discourse so that they can decide their own futures and the destiny of their country for themselves.

Thirdly, if the college is placing itself politically and inviting �progressive� people to give lectures (the likes of Al-Ghadhaami), is it not fair that such lectures are questioned by the participants and there is a chance for debate, dialogue and understanding? This did not occur on Sunday, rather people were muted and this lead to the events of Monday.

Fourthly, should such openly �progressive�s� open the debate around conservatism v progressiveness? Shouldn�t the floor be opened to both groups to speak, not just pushing one side of the story?

Fifthly, if the college is progressive, then the teachers are supposed to be too? If so then that brings me back to �teachers come to this country with an imperialistic colonial approach to teaching�. �We are right and our why of life is best, so you guys need to change!� and they call it liberalism�. Which, of course, you are totally against?

Finally, by positioning itself as a liberal progressive place without becoming a place for open debate and tolerance, has it not made itself a target and put its teachers at risk? Should its president not explain the risk and the measure being put in place to counter them to the staff? (It hasn�t happened yet, although he has spoken to the students!)

Thanks

[Cleopatra]

Part of me wonders why I should bother to address any of your points, since you so clearly failed to do the same for my points. But just for the sake of argument...

[MAstudent]

Cleo:�As an English teacher, I'd assume you have access to a good dictionary - I suggest you look up the relevant terms.�

The dictionary is insufficient for the definition of these politicalised words. They have to be defined by the person using them in the context he/she is using them. It is not good enough for you to use words and to expect those reading them to agree with your own, perhaps biased, meanings of them. I�m sure you would agree that semantics are important, wouldn�t you?

�Terrorism�, �war on terror�, �axis of evil�, �fight for freedom�, �to liberate the people�, etc. are all words or slogans which need a unified definition so as they can not be abused and misused as is happening in Iraq, Israel, etc. I deem these two terms of yours in the same light, used to beat people down and prop people up.

Cleo: �There are of course people far better qualified than I to define all such terms within the Saudi context�.

I think that it�s better not to use words that you can not define yourself and blindly accept the semantic definitions of others.


Cleo: �Do you suppose that Imam University, for example, is 'neutral'?

I have yet to say anything about Imam University, check all the mails I have sent.

Cleo: �Or is it simply that you only recognise those institutional biases which reflect your own�

Again I have made no comment on imam uni at all. I have never worked there, nor studied there. I�ve only been talking about an institute about which I have personal experience.


Cleo: �So which is which, Oh MA Student?�

Both. The college should be in the business of educating�..
In addition, the teachers are the facilitators of this education. Please try and understand what I wrote.

Finally, I did understand everything you have written to me thus far. However I have only commented on things I felt deserved my attention or were of benefit.

[MAstudent]

Cleo:�As an English teacher, I'd assume you have access to a good dictionary - I suggest you look up the relevant terms.�

The dictionary is insufficient for the definition of these politicalised words. They have to be defined by the person using them in the context he/she is using them. It is not good enough for you to use words and to expect those reading them to agree with your own, perhaps biased, meanings of them. I�m sure you would agree that semantics are important, wouldn�t you?

�Terrorism�, �war on terror�, �axis of evil�, �fight for freedom�, �to liberate the people�, etc. are all words or slogans which need a unified definition so as they can not be abused and misused as is happening in Iraq, Israel, etc. I deem these two terms of yours in the same light, used to beat people down and prop people up.

Cleo: �There are of course people far better qualified than I to define all such terms within the Saudi context�.

I think that it�s better not to use words that you can not define yourself and blindly accept the semantic definitions of others.


Cleo: �Do you suppose that Imam University, for example, is 'neutral'?

I have yet to say anything about Imam University, check all the mails I have sent.

Cleo: �Or is it simply that you only recognise those institutional biases which reflect your own�

Again I have made no comment on imam uni at all. I have never worked there, nor studied there. I�ve only been talking about an institute about which I have personal experience.


Cleo: �So which is which, Oh MA Student?�

Both. The college should be in the business of educating�..
In addition, the teachers are the facilitators of this education. Please try and understand what I wrote.

Finally, I did understand everything you have written to me thus far. However I have only commented on things I felt deserved my attention or were of benefit.

[Queen of Sheba]

[tuberculosis]

[quote="MAstudent"]Cleo:�As an English teacher, I'd assume you have access to a good dictionary - I suggest you look up the relevant terms.�

The dictionary is insufficient for the definition of these politicalised words. They have to be defined by the person using them in the context he/she is using them. It is not good enough for you to use words and to expect those reading them to agree with your own, perhaps biased, meanings of them. I�m sure you would agree that semantics are important, wouldn�t you?

�Terrorism�, �war on terror�, �axis of evil�, �fight for freedom�, �to liberate the people�, etc. are all words or slogans which need a unified definition so as they can not be abused and misused as is happening in Iraq, Israel, etc. I deem these two terms of yours in the same light, used to beat people down and prop people up.quote]

MAStudent, what was in the beginning a sober post about the college you are working at, has become extremely volatile. You seem to be very sincere in your efforts, but you are off target in saying that they should not have a political angle on education at the college. It sounds like you certainly have your own political angle to push. Since you are just a teacher there, and not an Administrator or even a citizen of Saudi Arabia, your opinions are not important or appropriate about the colleges actions in the community. I think you need a reality check-and an identity check. If the are as strategic and political as you suggest, they should not have hired the likes of you!

[Cleopatra]

Just to say that I agree completely with the above posters: it has become ever clearer that "MA Student" is pushing his own agenda here - the fact that he consistently accuses others of doing the same in no way covers this up. Al Yamamah have every right to their own ethos, as of course do colleges at the opposite end of the socio-cultural spectrum such as Imam (your attempt to deflect my previous question was noted, but not appreciated). YOu, however, have chosen to accept gainful employment at Yamamah, and are therefore professionally obliged to at least respect their way of doing things while you are at work - which of course is not the same thing as saying you have to accept it in your private life, which is entirely your own business.

Finally, I'd like to echo what both above posters have written: it is not the business of any transient expat to try and dictate what Saudi 'culture' can be or should be. It is for the Saudis themselves to work out what direction their country will take, and what place they as individuals will have in that country. They do not need the 'concern' of outsiders, be they arrogant "Westerners" trying to "liberate" the backward Arabs (we've seen enough of that already, thank you very much), or Muslims of whatever nationality who come here believing they know better than the Saudis about what "Saudi culture" "should" be, and attempting to force a complex and changing society to conform to their idealistic preconceptions.