|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ALPH
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
|
 Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
QUOTE (from said Article) --- :Saudi Women Must Act Now - The "Right" Time for Demanding Their Rights Will Never Come
In a recent article, Al-Huwaider attempted to encourage public protest by women in Saudi Arabia by calling on Saudi women to take the initiative and demand their rights, and not to wait in vain for "the right time": "The high hopes and the promises that they have given you, Saudi women, are many - but your situation is still as wretched and miserable as it has been for decades. Many of you enjoy a quiet, good life, but many others... must deal with violence and alienation, of various kinds. You must not dismiss the possibility that those of you who enjoy [a good life] today may tomorrow be in a miserable situation if you lose the man who handles your affairs - because there are no laws to protect you and no safe shelter you can turn to when time betrays you. This is because you are not persistently and seriously demanding your rights.
"And you, Saudi women: What are you waiting for?... You do not hesitate at all to help and support others - and the proof of this is what you did for Lebanon. But you hesitate greatly to help yourselves... I would like to understand why you hesitate to initiate the demand for your rights. Is it because there are no statistics that reveal the miserable situation of many Saudi women? Knock on the doors of the courthouses, and you will know the magnitude of this catastrophe. Is it because the blood of the Saudi woman who is a victim of violence flows in complete silence, so that no one pays attention? Or is it because the lives of the Saudi women are dirt cheap, and so they breathe their last without anyone noticing?... I do not know why you wait, or how long you will wait."UNQUOTE
Thank you, 007. That certainly places the theme in context. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dear 007,
May I be so presumptious as to offer a piece of advice? If you want anyone to take you at all seriously, I suggest you refrain from using MEMRI as a source. It is not a reliable or remotely objective organisation. Rather, it is a far-right Israeli propaganda outfit run by 'retired' employees of that country's intelligence services. Its purpose is not to educate or enlighten, but to win support for the racist, war-mongering policies of its sponsers. Notice how MEMRI is curiously silent on the bigoted rantings of so many Israeli politicians.
Using MEMRI as a source for 'insight' into matters Middle Eastern is a bit like using CNN as a source for insight into.... well, anything, really.
http://memriwatch.org/feed/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html
| Quote: |
Cleopatra wrote:
..Surely that particular responsibility rested with the women who attended, or tried to attend, said lecture? Not one of them made a point of protesting their treatment when they might have been able to do something about it.
Saudi women cannot make, or think of making, any point of protest, because they have two types of fear, internal fear and external fear |
Gosh, that's sublime. Working with Saudi women every day, I have to say I don't find them particularly fearful (but maybe I'm oblivious to their 'internal fears'?), nor would any teacher who has given a Saudi student a grade she 'doesn't like' agree that they are unwilling to protest. But hey, far be it from me to challenge the Orientalist stereotypes of submissive Muslim women, as peddled by 'former' Mossad operatives. Oh, and in case you're going to defend this banal piece of writing by reminding me that it comes from a Saudi woman, let me remind you that 'Saudi women' are just as diverse in their views as women everywhere, and their lives not quite as pathetic as men who have never spoken to one of them might like to think.
Can you let us know if MEMRI can provide any insight into the different types of fear felt by ESL teachers in KSA?
Last edited by Cleopatra on Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ALPH
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| you are the lady who in the previous page suggested that one of the benefits of the suppresion of saudi women is that you get to jump to the head of a queue in a bank. Tis indeed a bit presumptious of you to imagine that anyone would want to take you seriously or indeed seek your advice on this matter |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| you are the lady who in the previous page suggested that one of the benefits of the suppresion of saudi women is that you get to jump to the head of a queue in a bank |
And your point (other than the 'suppresion' bit) is... what, exactly? Even the most sexist systems do have some small advantages for women, nothing new there. But it's a shame you didn't read my post, because if you had, you'd have noticed where I said:
| Quote: |
| on balance, women suffer more than men as a result of due Saudi gender segregation |
| Quote: |
| Tis indeed a bit presumptious of you to imagine that anyone would want to take you seriously or indeed seek your advice on this matter |
Did I actually do either of the above? I'm not at all sure that I did.
But yes, call me presumptious if I wish, but I do happen to feel that someone who has spent hours a day with Saudi women, every day, for several years, just might have more to say on the subject than a man who - correct me if I'm wrong - has had little or no contact with those same Saudi women. Not to mention the fact that, as a woman, I have had to live under at least some of the same restrictions that Saudi women live under. What's your experience of how women live in KSA, BTW?
And to those who believe that it is incumbent upon the public in general to protest the great medical conference lockout of 2006, can I ask if they live in Saudi Arabia? If the answer is yes, could they tell me what they are currently doing to protest this injustice? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ALPH
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hmm .. you should perhaps read your entry again. Regarding my contact with saudi women, the Laws forbid me to expand on this matter. I cannot say, hand on heart, that the Saudi women I do know are crying into their shay bi laymoon beacuse of their lot. But then, they are for the most part, ignorant of any other mode of existence. As for protesting this 'injustice', perhaps raising awareness is one form of protest. If this Thread serves to do that - at least raise discussion (and counter-discussion, alas) on the subject - maybe thats one small step. Worst that can happen is we find out where we don't belong |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| hmm .. you should perhaps read your entry again. |
hmmmm.... explain why, please.
| Quote: |
| Regarding my contact with saudi women, the Laws forbid me to expand on this matter. |
Oh ya, the Saudi police have nothing better to do than trawl Dave's looking for ESL teachers who post under pseudonoms and have had 'contact' with the local women. Sure.
| Quote: |
| they are for the most part, ignorant of any other mode of existence. |
Of course, for reasons which are fairly obvious, you've chosen to remain mum on your supposed dealings with Saudi women. However, as someone who has had extensive dealings with them, I can say that many of them have travelled widely and often even lived abroad, including in the hallowed 'West'. In other words, it's not an 'ignorance is bliss' thing, evne if most male expats are indeed woefully ignorant of the reality of Saudi women's lives. While most of thewomen I've known would like some change in the condition of their lives, for the most part they defend their traditions, and would want any change to occur within this framework.
| Quote: |
| As for protesting this 'injustice', perhaps raising awareness is one form of protest. |
I completely disagree. The only obvious form of protest would have been for the women present - many, if not most, of whom were not Saudi - to have exercised their legal right to attend the lecture. Since they chose not to do so (whether due to external or internal fear, is not entirely clear) I personally am not going to lose too much sleep over some hospital employees missing out on some wannabe mutawwa's lecture. Even within the context of Saudi women's rights, or lack of same, there are far more important issues to be concerned about. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ALPH
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 87
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I did try. It was saudi womenfolk in general i was talking about. Sometimes i do wonder if Western women such as yourself arent suffering more with your supposed Freedom than the saudi ladies under the hammer. Thank you for your graciousness in replying to my posts |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bje
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 527
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Interesting...so you believe you sorta know what it's like to be a woman, whether Saudi or 'Western'? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| It was saudi womenfolk in general i was talking about. |
Oh, I see. So now you have moved on from talking about "the Saudi women I do know" to "Saudi womenfolk in general"? I still am very curious to know how you, an expat male whose dealings with said 'womenfolk' must by neccesity be extremely limited, are qualified to speak on the topic.
| Quote: |
| the saudi ladies under the hammer. |
Your use of this expression merely confirms my suspicion: you simply have no idea what you are talking about. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SCHUBERT
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 71
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Poor ol Alph indeed ! I have followed this thread with interest. What baffles me is why you take these ladies (with the Royal names) Seriously in the first place. Doesn't the fact that Cleopatra who 'has been here for years' and some of the others no doubt, put you on your marks !! Their plight, it would seem, is far worse than the Saudi ladies. These actually chose to be here. They are to be commiserated with, God bless 'em. So now sit back, Alph and enjoy the scratching and wallpaper tearing that follows this post. You have shone. Well done |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| So now sit back, Alph and enjoy the scratching and wallpaper tearing that follows this post. |
I suppose living in KSA, a country where women are daily struggling with both their internal and external fears, swells the egos of certain men who think their poorly written 'posts' inspire anything other than pity (for their students, that is). That said, it's not at all surprising that a man who can't construct a logical argument should come to the defense of another man who shares this inability. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
