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thewileycoyote
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 31
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 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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I think everyone is being a bit harsh in their criticism of Clark's posts. At least by knowing Clark's interests, which he is not hiding, you know which way his posts are slanted.
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Personally I think that the EF franchise fees are just too high and I think that this, more than any other single reason, is why franchisees jump ship. I don't think that it indicates dissatisfaction with the organization but moreso an opportunity by the franchisees to try and save a few bucks. So EF's biggest mistake here in my mind is believing that their name is worth more here than it probably really is.
The value of a franchise is of course very clear in the beginning as business owners learn from the franchisor how to run that type of business. Once the business is up and running however the value decreases (at least in the eyes of the franchisee) and they jump ship. |
I think Clark made some good points here. Clark probably did downplay the amount of dissatisfaction that the franchiesees have with EF. I think we have to remember that often franchisees want the best of both worlds, the safety of opening a franchise and the autonomy of their own business. On the otherhand the Franchisor want to have control to ensure the quality of the product. In China where everything is copied once the knowledge to do so has be aquired I am surprised so many feel that this is not possible with EF. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| I think everyone is being a bit harsh in their criticism of Clark's posts. At least by knowing Clark's interests, which he is not hiding, you know which way his posts are slanted. |
What are those interests he's not hiding and cause his posts to be so slanted - what does Clark do in China - is he an ordinary FT 
If Clark wont tell us then maybe Mr. Cayote will spill the beans - after all it helps understand a posters argument if we know the posters professional interests within this industry. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| I would assume that the above would easily be proved as all would likely be in written form. So why don't the franchisees seek to dissolve the agreement through formal channels rather than jumping ship if that is indeed what they are doing? |
I don't think(many/all) have jumped ship in the manner that you have characterised. It seems unfair to paint this as the center owners breaking the contract unless you know that for sure. Many have dissolved their agreement and still many more are seeking resolution through government and the courts.
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cj750 wrote:
...as it seems that Clark is warning that quality is not worth seeking when looking for that entry level position.
I�m not sure where you get that impression.
My point is pretty simple. To me the name is not as important as what goes on in the school. I don�t believe that the EF name in itself is synonymous with quality from a franchisee or student point of view. This does not mean that there are not good quality schools within the chain. The same goes for teaching experiences. I don�t believe that the name guarantees one either a bad or a good experience. It is what goes on inside the individual school that makes the difference here. |
I see where that impression is coming from. If the name is not associated with quality, why would a center owner want to continue their relationship. If a Franchised Chain is leaving quality up to the individuals, what is in it for other franchise holders. I think the astounding element to this thread is as someone who advertises for EF, what are you doing downplaying the quality associated with EF's branding. Do you not utilize that branding to advertise EF on your website. If not for the notoriety (branding) of the logo would the placement of the ad on your page work in their benefit. People in charge of buying advertising for a branded product usually frown on this sort of dialogue. Not my business Clark, but your defense of this chain is developing a picture of a franchiser who has no branding to offer. |
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thewileycoyote
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: |
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Why don't you click on the links in Clarks sig. If I am not mistaken Clark has mentioned that this is his site on numerous occasions.
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| and cause his posts to be so slanted |
I think my wording implied a bit slanted not the extremely slanted you imply. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Why don't you click on the links in Clarks sig. If I am not mistaken Clark has mentioned that this is his site on numerous occasions. |
So you believe that Clark's sole connection with the Chinese TEFL market is running a web site that promotes working in China as an FT
Mr. Cayote - Clark has been asked several times what other connections he has - which led him to reveal that he has had experience of being an FT - but will never tell us what he does now (in fact he has for some mysterious reason refused to discuss this matter). Actually I don't think anyone wants those kind of specifics that could break his anonymity - but just a general picture of his present TEFL related duties, something that would give us a better idea of where his viewpoints originate - and where his real posting agenda lies.
By the way Clark has never been so naive as in trying to make us believe that Buxiban is his sole interest in the TEFL market - its just the only one he admits to  |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| evaforsure wrote: |
The bottom line is that many franchise owners in China jump ship to stop losing money.
buximan's reply:
Interesting. I don't get the impression that those that I am aware of that jumped ship were doing badly before they jumped and in fact they seem to have been doing pretty well before they jumped. Again I accept that there may be examples of what you suggest however. |
we've got all kinds of "bottom lines" here, don't we?  ... and then clark comes with his "interesting impressions" that in this quote above actually show some factual knowledge of his connections to the EF English First organization 
CLARK, THE ONES THAT YOU ARE "AWARE OF" ARE THE ONES THAT YOU ADVERTISE ON YOUR BUXIBAN SITE
peace to the EF franchising system
and
cheers and beers to our knowledge and experience of EF  |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Maybe the language mill is not the strongest horse in EF's stable...
EF is now expanding into travel products and is currently looking for sales staff...... |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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cj, do you mean products like shampoo, tooth brushes, tooth pastes etc 
peace to p*ssin horses
and
cheers and beers to all kinda travel products |
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in_asia_bill
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 197
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: |
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EF has always been into travel. It started as a travel company giving language immersion holidays to Swedish kids. To this day many kids go on EF language holidays and stay with a host family in a foreign country. And they have quite a good reputation. It is just in CHina that they are sh_it. But then thats the Chinese, isnt it? It is the opposite of the Midas touch, instead of making everything they touch turn t gold everything they come into contact with turns to sh_ite.
EF dont have franchises in Taiwan, Macau, Singapore, or Hong Kong. Why ...........? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| in_asia_bill wrote: |
| EF dont have franchises in Taiwan, Macau, Singapore, or Hong Kong. Why ...........? |
This is a very good question and Taiwan would probably be the best comparison to make out of the countries that you have listed above.
In Taiwan the market is already filled with well known names such as Wall Street, David�s, Gram, Global Village and Kojen for the adults, and Joy, Hess, Kojen, Jordans, Kid Castle for the kids. Anyone looking to buy into a franchise in Taiwan would likely go for one of the established names I would think in preference to a relative unknown, especially considering that the unknown is perhaps overpriced for the market.
EF may have a well established name in Europe but in my opinion it is just another chain school in China. I believe that franchisees that buy into EF soon come to realize that while the product/service that they are selling is what the students want and that their schools can be profitable, that the name on the door is not what brings the people in the door. This is why I believe that financial concerns are one of the main motivators of franchisees who jump ship. Why keep paying for the use of a name if that name does not mean anything to your customers?
| evaforsure wrote: |
| I don't think(many/all) have jumped ship in the manner that you have characterised. It seems unfair to paint this as the center owners breaking the contract unless you know that for sure. |
And it seems equally unfair for you to suggest that franchisees leave due to overall problems with EF. Quite clearly the decisions of franchisees to leave the chain are varied. I fully accept that some may leave due to dissatisfaction with the chain � sometimes warranted sometimes not. Why do you seem to have such a problem accepting that the financial benefits of leaving are also a drawcard for some of these franchisees?
| evaforsure wrote: |
| Many have dissolved their agreement and still many more are seeking resolution through government and the courts. |
And if that is what they are doing then good for them. I fully support the idea of franchisees taking the franchisor to court for not living up to the contract. Just the same as I support teachers with legitimate gripes against schools to stand up against those schools. I have not heard of any franchisees taking EF to court over disputes � can you link to any reports about this as it could be an interesting read?
| evaforsure wrote: |
| If the name is not associated with quality, why would a center owner want to continue their relationship. If a Franchised Chain is leaving quality up to the individuals, what is in it for other franchise holders. |
Quality as far as students and teachers are concerned comes from the management in my opinion. You can hand out a perfect program to two separate individuals � one will run with it and make something of it, while the other could completely stuff it up. Franchisees buy the recipe and the assistance in preparing their school � what they choose to do with that information is really up to them. That is definitely the downside or upside to franchises as opposed to wholly company owned chains. This is why to me it is so important to identify which individual schools in any chain are managed well.
| evaforsure wrote: |
| I think the astounding element to this thread is as someone who advertises for EF, what are you doing downplaying the quality associated with EF's branding. Do you not utilize that branding to advertise EF on your website. |
The site that I am associated with is for teachers not for potential franchisees. We have a banner for EF on our site because we believe that overall it is a good employer that the users of our site can choose to investigate. In all of the years that people have complained about EF I have never once seen a concrete reason that EF as a whole should be avoided. Chain schools are easy targets, just go to any ESL board around the world and you will see that � same old complaints and same types of people making those complaints.
Personally I don�t believe that the EF name in Asia is worth the franchise fees that EF charges as it is not a name that is recognized here. Just because the name is not synonymous with quality does not mean that the product is sub-standard, it just means that they have not established a name for quality here despite the high price tag. I can understand why franchisees would question the value of their ongoing investment in that name over time and provided that they leave the chain legally I am sure that there is no problem there. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| We have a banner for EF on our site because we believe that overall it is a good employer that the users of our site can choose to investigate. In all of the years that people have complained about EF I have never once seen a concrete reason that EF as a whole should be avoided. |
Clark since you are so sure of the underlying quality of EF as the employer - can you tell us which centers we should avoid and which are safe places to work. After all such a careful poster as yourself wouldn't make the kind of statement in the quote on mere assumption!
Otherwise we are left in the lurch pondering over what you mean by - EF as a whole - wording that leaves us in no doubt that within this company something seems to be rather wrong  |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| thewileycoyote wrote: |
| I think everyone is being a bit harsh in their criticism of Clark's posts. At least by knowing Clark's interests, which he is not hiding, you know which way his posts are slanted.... |
sorry to have procrastinated on yor rather sharp observation there...Clark has previously confronted forums' users who've come to share their unfortunate EF experiences on...then with respect or disrespect to facts, he's provided little to contradict those unfortunate ones there...i mean how could he've been sympathetic, when he's either never worked for an EF center nor seemingly anywhere in china....and then his site does carry some of those EF centers on, doesn't it  ....speakin' of "knowing Clark's interests" or who's been "harsh"
peace to coyote who obviously knows our Clarkie as well as those "interests" that he "is not hiding"
and
cheers and beers to all hard working FTs around the world |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| And it seems equally unfair for you to suggest that franchisees leave due to overall problems with EF. |
why is that unfair...in my experience, it is the reason most cited...
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| Why do you seem to have such a problem accepting that the financial benefits of leaving are also a draw card for some of these franchisees? |
i have seen no evidence except for your postings as to this being a reason. Most of the centers that leave is due to being in financial straits because of their affiliation (or so perceived by the owners) with EF.
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| Franchisees buy the recipe and the assistance in preparing their school � what they choose to do with that information is really up to them. |
Well they buy the branding also and true to what you've said due to the lack of EF control of centers. What they do with the information is really up to the individual center, which is why some EF owners, disappointed with the lack of control are bailing.
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| The site that I am associated with is for teachers not for potential franchisees. We have a banner for EF on our site because we believe that overall it is a good employer that the users of our site can choose to investigate. In all of the years that people have complained about EF I have never once seen a concrete reason that EF as a whole should be avoided. |
While I believe that you have never seen a reason, nevertheless, reasons still exist. What kind of association and is there any other associates and do you not accept payment for the ad placed on your website, in part of your post you speak of a "we" but in the last part you claim that "you" have never seen, so are decisions to include ads from a school made by a "we" or a "you". What criteria do you use to determine if a school is a good school or a bad school.
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| Personally I don�t believe that the EF name in Asia is worth the franchise fees that EF charges as it is not a name that is recognized here. Just because the name is not synonymous with quality does not mean that the product is sub-standard, it just means that they have not established a name for quality here despite the high price tag. I can understand why franchisees would question the value of their ongoing investment in that name over time and provided that they leave the chain legally I am sure that there is no problem there. |
Again I would question the business savvy of the buyer who purchases ad space on a page where the owner/operator makes a statement as such, but your statement backs up everything I have said here. I too believe that the EF name does not insure quality in China but how can you state that a chain, who's very existence is based on standardized quality,
The lack of that quality as stated in your post would mean that the product is sub standard. Even if they leave the chain under less than legal conditions, EF lacks the control to do anything about it. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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well, it looks like our buximan with his phd in EF education is on a vacation somewhere in china
EF lacks the control for sure, but the important thing in my view on this thread is that the EF product apparently does not fit customers and doesn't meet their expectations in many locations in china....say for example EF Huizhou (Guangdong) with its less than half a million population, where there are young learners with their parents' expectations of mostly improving their kids' public schools' grades or where there are businesses with their expectations to "supervise" the private schools' courses providing their own needs
peace to EF academic material and hamburgers with fries
as well as
cheers and beers franchising it |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
| well, it looks like our buximan with his phd in EF education is on a vacation somewhere in china |
Nope I am here. My lengthy reply to Evaforsure was deleted from the public board for some reason and I can't really be bothered writing it again.
I think that my position on the subject is pretty clear though so there is probably no need to continue. |
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