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Theriel
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 26
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
What I really like is the bit where he replies to Mark Twain!
It's not really about India at all, Henry. It's quite common to be promised a telephone interview, or even a job, and then to hear nothing back.
The basic case here appears to be a lack of co-ordination between the recruiter and the client. Happens all the time.
One of the best candidates I ever interviewed was sent a contract and everything, but then HR used a visa spot they had for him for somebody who was coming immediately instead of in September, and then forgot to reactivate him. By the time I found out about it he'd obviously got another job.
Incidentally talking about cultural differences between India and the West (or in this particular case Sri Lanka and the West) is that westerners tend to be, rightly, obsessed with process, factual detail, whilst the Indian mentality tends to look more at the result. In computer programming this is often a disastrous mismatch of expectations, but it can effect everyday stuff.
I was assured numerous times that the tar sheet and aluminum sheeting had been put on the kitchen ceiling and then when I climb up a ladder to look it's not. My mate had bought and paid for it and given it to the carpenter, the carpenter had just not come round to install it, but as far as my mate was concerned the end result was the same, I was going to have the stuff there sooner or later. |
Hrmm, I'm going slightly on a tangent, but I just wanted to respond to the cultural issue.  Had similar experiences regarding the tar sheet/aluminum sheeting thing.
I can't speak for Sri Lanka, but I have to admit that quite a bit of my experience in India was less than enjoyable, and I'm not sure I could ever live there. I'm not even sure that I saw any sort of outlook towards results. I saw one hotel owner in Shimla who had a bunch of broken windows in his hotel, right after he had supposedly just renovated, and when I asked him what he will do when winter comes, he just shrugged. It was obvious this wasn't a "I'll fix this later", this was an "I don't care". It will mean a lot of complaints in the winter time, but he obviously just didn't care.
Travel does broaden the mind, but certain cultures can still be very challenging for those of another. My expectations were nonexistant before I went to India; I really wasn't sure what to expect. I had met Indians abroad, but mostly they were educated computer programmers or doctors who seemed to be hard working, honest, and enjoyable to be with. But I had a completely different experience once IN India. They seem to have a pervailing fatalism and lack of interest in nearly anything productive, which was horribly frustrating. The apathy there was apalling, for me. I would run into some difficulty or another and just get a head bob and a "That's life" rather than an attempt to solve the problem. When I got really sick in Shimla, I had a bunch of nurses trying to "help me" in one of the grimiest hospitals I've ever seen, rivaling some of the worst pubs in Finland in terms of cleanliness. In the toilet there was dried feces on the wall, and nothing had been cleaned in months. I'm just glad the bed didn't have bugs. Furthermore, they had about 9 nurses to take care of me, and they kept touching the needle before injecting me with a saline solution to rehydrate me, ending up causing an infection. Mostly really, what they did was talk with each other, and really did almost nothing to help me... I got well out of a desire to flee the hospital and get back to a clean room and toilet. If this was a cheap hospital I could at least understand some of the problems, a lack of infrastructure or such, but one day there ended up costing me over 120€. I suspect that was the foreigner price.
I have been to quite a few varied places, including Africa, the Middle East, and other Asian countries, and never had quite the same experience that I had in India. I spent a month in the plains and then in the Himalayas; Ladakh was amazing, and even Srinagar, which has a reputation far worse than it deserves, was really nice. The Ladakhi were honest, simple but really hard working, and if there was a problem they did their best with what they had. I had a problem at one point in a hotel with hot water and asked the owner. He responded that they have a small boiler and can only heat it for a certain amount of hours per day, but he'd be happy to bring me a bucket of hot water for no charge. They fixed things which were broken, and had a really happy go lucky attitude even when times were tough. In a place that has 8 months of winter, that's a fair amount of the year. And yet they were amazingly welcoming, and did their best with a difficult life.
But the plains? I really wonder what attracts people to live there. I had feces thrown at me the very first day I was in Delhi, and found the people to be almost nothing but deceptive. It seems culturally acceptable to do anything necessary in order to get money, and I felt like I just was one giant dollar sign for them, as a westerner. Agra was even worse; one giant cesspool of people out to cheat you any way they can. Giving stories of places being closed so they can take you to your hotel, taxis not taking you to the right destination, salesmen willing to sell any cheap imitation at any chance and lying about it to boot.. hordes of people hanging near the tourist office, waiting to find tourists so they could direct them away from the legit office to their own, and make them pay outrageous fees.
I was so glad when I finally got to the mountains. Poverty may be challenging to deal with, but the Ladakhi at least find no need to deceive or throw feces at people (the feces thing is even described in Lonely Planet in the Connaught Place section.. evidently I wasn't the only one to experience it). I hope other people have more positive experiences than me, because there are a fair amount of foreigners in Delhi. For me, I think my visit was long enough, and there are so many places in the world where I would be better welcomed that I don't honestly fret about it that much. Just my two cents |
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Theriel
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 26
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| medusa wrote: |
I wouldn't have liked to have been on the other end... Meaning quite simply, lots of people get pooed on. It happens. Even more so in countries like India, so as unfair as it may seem, sometimes you have to accept it and just shrug and say "TII". |
Sometimes even literally pooed on!  Stupid Connaught Place. What makes you love it, Medusa? I seem to have fallen on the negative side, but honestly I'm curious what makes people deal with all the things I just mentioned and say "well, some of that does exist, but there is X." I just didn't find the X, the flipside that makes things easier to deal with. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Throwing faeces at people. When I was in New Dehli in 94 there was a character in Connaught Place whose sole method of sustenance was to put shit on your shoe. I was waiting outside a disco and he surreptitiously put shit on my shoe and volunteered to clean it. I'm not dumb and after I'd grabbed him by the throat and pushed him against the wall he decided to clean it for free.
Unfortunately he had rather a bad memory and did the same thing ten days later in the middle of Connaught Place. After I started to beat him up whilst passers-by and policemen turned the other way he agreed, complaining but somewhat shaken, to clean it off. When he had bent down to do it and his head was hovering over the topsole with dogshit on it I gave him a sharp kick covering his face with the dog turd. He immediately ran off.
Possibly after that experience he was more wary and thus has developed the trick of throwing faeces at the coat from a distance, thus explaining your experience.
With regard to the hospital, I suspect you were ripped off. The only time I was in hospital in Lanka it was in a government hospital so it was free, but the price for a day's stay, including food, at the private clinic comes to $6.50 a day.
You've simply hit the tourist spots in India, and this explains your experiences. After all why should a respectable middle-class Indian who speaks good English bother to approach a somewhat disheveled backpacker?
With regard to the hotel owner at Simla, the answer is obviously that he didn't have enough money to fix the windows but didn't want to admit it in front of a guest. He could have appeared a down-and-out, or he could have appeared to be soliciting money. Better to say nothing.
In Agra I walked back from the Taj Mahal to my hotel, about a five kilometer walk, simply to avoid the tuk-tuk driver that followed me for the first three kilometers. But what to do? The guy hasn't got a fare and you're a potential fare. Just smile and keep walking. And lets be fair. Are you really surprised to see touts at the top tourist attraction in the world? |
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Theriel
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 26
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
With regard to the hospital, I suspect you were ripped off. The only time I was in hospital in Lanka it was in a government hospital so it was free, but the price for a day's stay, including food, at the private clinic comes to $6.50 a day.
You've simply hit the tourist spots in India, and this explains your experiences. After all why should a respectable middle-class Indian who speaks good English bother to approach a somewhat disheveled backpacker?
In Agra I walked back from the Taj Mahal to my hotel, about a five kilometer walk, simply to avoid the tuk-tuk driver that followed me for the first three kilometers. But what to do? The guy hasn't got a fare and you're a potential fare. Just smile and keep walking. And lets be fair. Are you really surprised to see touts at the top tourist attraction in the world? |
Could be the same character. I'm told that it's usually two people nowadays though.. one to throw shit on you and another one to offer to clean it. I chased him to do something similar as you did but he ran off into a thick crowd.
In my defense, I wasn't disheveled, but I was a backpacker it's true And that does explain the window thing, but hrmm.. about Agra.. I dunno, some places deal with large amounts of tourism better than others. Leh had lots of tourists and was fine. No hassles at all. I got sick in Shimla, and the hospital wasn't nice, but the town itself was fine. Mcleod Ganj is swamped with hippy tourists, but it was great. Delhi? Agra? Meh Seems like they tried to harass you too, but you just weren't bothered by it. Maybe it's a matter of sensitivity.. Finland is dark and cold and people drink huge amounts of alcohol, but I'm not bothered by those. The people are amazingly friendly and kind, if a bit shy, and the honesty here is really refreshing. You found some good things in India and therefore weren't bothered by touts or other things.
Before my trip to India I was a bit innocent with touts. I had only been to South America, North America, Europe, and Egypt.. and actually I didn't even know the word tout before planning my trip  Egypt and Brazil have their downsides, but I didn't encounter any touts while I was there. So yes, I was surprised, simply because I was new to the Indian experience in general. Touts are mainly in southern Asia and some of southeast Asia, although some African nations have their share too. And saying anything to get people to go to your shop or taxi or whatever seems to be fair game. It was frustrating. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Egypt and Brazil have their downsides, but I didn't encounter any touts while I was there |
Are you sure it was Egypt you went to, and not some imitation of the Pyramids in Las Vegas? |
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asgerd
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
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| Egypt and Brazil have their downsides, but I didn't encounter any touts while I was there |
Are you sure it was Egypt you went to, and not some imitation of the Pyramids in Las Vegas? |
Yeah, seriously... you didn't get hassled in EGYPT?? Nicest touts I ever met, but no shortage of them. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Egyptian touts are much more aggressive than Indian touts, but don't have the latter's mind-blowing persisitence. |
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ESL Hobo
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 262
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Great reading,
This post answered most of my questions about working in Bangalore for Spectrum or getting a job through them.
I think working for their company as a language specialist would be a welcome change of pace and they seem reliable overall.
After the first page I started skipping over the rants and got a lot out of the other posts. Thanks a lot to all who posted here.
The ESL Hobo
"I'd rather have a 'Knee-shaker' in India than a 'Sit-down' in China." |
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jivendost
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| danielita wrote: |
Hi Roger,
You may have just hit a cultural wall and perhaps someone with more experience in Indian culture could back me up on this assumption that Indians do not like to say "no" to people and her evasive tactics were more cultural than intentional on her part.
D |
Based on my visits to India and experiences with people from India, I can definitely say that this comment about Indian culture is quite true. For instance, in the medical line of work, there are still many doctors who feel insulted if you go elsewhere to ask for a second opinion, especially once you are an established patient. They are also often offended if you ask them questions about the treatment prescribed as it implies that you feel that the doctor doesn't know what s/he is talking about in his/her own field. So if you do not have confidence in a doctor, you politely take the prescription given and not go to the pharmacy to pick up the medication -- and then find another doctor without telling the doctor who gave the prescription. |
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rockyp44
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Chennai, India
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:25 am Post subject: So, what was the outcome? |
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| ESL Hobo wrote: |
Great reading,
This post answered most of my questions about working in Bangalore for Spectrum or getting a job through them.
I think working for their company as a language specialist would be a welcome change of pace and they seem reliable overall.
After the first page I started skipping over the rants and got a lot out of the other posts. Thanks a lot to all who posted here.
The ESL Hobo
"I'd rather have a 'Knee-shaker' in India than a 'Sit-down' in China." |
Did you take the job? How do you like it? |
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El Chupacabra
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Kwangchow
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: So, what was the outcome? |
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| rockyp44 wrote: |
| Did you take the job? How do you like it? |
I'm one that took one of these jobs, and all I say is it leaves lots of explaining to your next employer if English teaching is your career.
The Language Specialist (LS) jobs have nothing to do with English teaching, and are more properly "quality analyst" jobs in the call center context. Duties are mostly listening to call recordings and then rating soft skills and language skills according to parameters set by corporate weasels. These ratings affect the job status of engineers at Microsoft, so the role of the LS is more like a traffic cop. After "busting" them, for communications infractions as innocuous as using present continuous tense for state verbs, the LS coaches the offender so these shibboleths aren't repeated.
Spectrum will treat you well, but Microsoft will try to break your spirit. Don't expect this gig to give you experience in English teaching, but you will definitely become part of the pedagogy of the oppressed. Just take for what it is, a one-year contract in a very interesting city with a low cost of living.You will prostitute yourself for the cause of cultural replication, and get diarrhea or worms at least once a month. |
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rockyp44
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Chennai, India
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I've been here well over a year and haven't had the runs yet! |
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El Chupacabra
Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 378
Location: Kwangchow
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| rockyp44 wrote: |
| I've been here well over a year and haven't had the runs yet! |
From your profile, it is clear that you are not "here" but in Chennai, far from the cafeterias at Microsoft's Global Technical Support Center! |
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sharter
Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 878
Location: All over the place
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: What do you expect? |
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If a job is in Africa, it is usually messed up. If a post is in Asia, it is usually underpaid. If a position is in a dictatorship, it is usually a baby- sitting post. If an opening is in an Islamic country, it is usually a long time coming home.
If a job is in EFL, it doesn't count as there are no rules, no meaningful governing bodies and no standards save your own through out much of the world.
The sub-continent is famed for its bureaucracy....just go native and don't give a damn. |
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eclectic
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 1122
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| They seem to have a pervailing fatalism and lack of interest in nearly anything productive, which was horribly frustrating. The apathy there was apalling |
****SOUNDS LIKE MY KINDA PLACE. WISH I'D READ THIS SOONER! |
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