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mdk
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 425
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 Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the encouragement, gaijin.
Shucks, I don't mind challenging students. I didn't even cry when they asked me to take on the rugrats a couple of times. As for bad experiences in Moscow, well, it wasn't at all bad for seven months. It's impossible not to have a good time in Moscow if you're at all prudent. If nothing else it was diverting to hear my younger colleague's tales of adventures in the bars over the weekend.
I taught there peacefully enough for seven months and then all of a sudden I was persona non grata. I can't help wondering at times whether it might not have been those ESL podcasts I told all my students about. I told them all where they could go and get supplemental free lessons and work on their skills. Then when I got my ticket cancelled two months early, I asked if that had honked them off. "Off course not, you're just not our kind of teacher." I guess, I'm not.
So. Sadder but wiser, eh? But I do like teaching ESL. I liked it for 3 terms while I was doing it out in Siberia. I just didn't do well in the big city, being a country boy at heart, I suppose.
This probably illustrates my second corollary of teaching ESL. "The farther you get away from anybody else who speaks English, the easier it is to get a job teaching it." Out in the tiaga I was the foremost authority within 1,000 km on you name it - English literature, English drama, English Poetry. They'ld ask me to come give a talk and I'ld spend an hour boning up on the subject and Voila! It was the best of times, It was the worst of times.  |
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John Hall
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 452
Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mdk wrote: |
| This probably illustrates my second corollary of teaching ESL. "The farther you get away from anybody else who speaks English, the easier it is to get a job teaching it." Out in the tiaga I was the foremost authority within 1,000 km on you name it - English literature, English drama, English Poetry. They'ld ask me to come give a talk and I'ld spend an hour boning up on the subject and Voila! It was the best of times, It was the worst of times. |
Aha! You too are a maven, and love it! So don't criticize others here for being mavens. Also, lay off the nasty insults, mdk. You are not going to get a lot of helpful advice if you insult practically everyone who reads these forums. I am surprised that the moderators have not booted you off yet. That does happen to those who go too far.
If you are to grow and develop as a teacher, you need to take your friend Socrates's advice: know that you know nothing about it. Whatever worked for you as a student is not necessarily going to work for everyone else. Teaching methodology is something that has to change as long as the teaching situations change, which in our line of work, almost always do. There is no perfect single way to teach. The more you practice with just one methodology, the more you will discover its limitations. Be humble. The best teachers I have known have always been the humblest ones, the ones always asking others what they think about different methodologies, and the ones who, just like Socrates, never boast that they know the best way. |
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mdk
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| if you insult practically everyone who reads these forums. |
Perhaps, it is a question of culture, but I, myself, consider it highly insulting for some stranger to deliver a left-handed (and unprovoked) remark about my ability. It is particularly vexatious when it is tangential to the question at hand. I came here with the impression that one could ask questions about teaching - and have them answered with some degree of civility.
I was not aware that some people feel they have a license to sit in judgement of me - and announce it in a public forum - because I had the temerity to ask some questions. There is a private message function here and if someone wants to comment on my personality or my abilities, then one would expect them to have the decency and propriety to do so privately. Had I figured out the private message function before today, I would have restricted my remarks to the eyes of those who deserved them. I apologize for my gaucherie in that respect to the rest of the learned company.
Again, perhaps it is a cultural issue. Perhaps some of these people come from some savage wilderness where one walk's up to a stranger in public and makes any sort of off-hand derogatory remark that happens to pop into one's mind. Perhaps you, yourself, expect that -when somebody opines that I don't know my own business or what I am talking about - that my proper response would be to tug my forelock and thank them for the lesson. Perhaps I should shout, "Thank you sir! May I please have another!? Who knows? It's an unfortunate and unpleasant business. I sort of doubt we will see any more of it.
But thank you for your kindly remarks. I will try to keep them in mind and at least try to turn the other cheek. May I ask how you find Costa Rica? I have always heard well of it, but times change. It was reported to me as a pretty peaceful and pleasant place by Central American standards. Do you find it to be so?
P.S. In Mexico (and in parts of California) insulting strangers is a good way to get yourself knifed. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Perhaps, it is a question of culture, but I, myself, consider it highly insulting for some stranger to deliver a left-handed (and unprovoked) remark about my ability. |
It's not culture but your attitude and naivete about ESL. If you could write more like a normal person, too, that would help. You sound far more like the people whom you call pompous here.
Got a teaching question? Go for it! The gallery's open to hear what you want to ask. Let's just get over the pride thing, or whatever it is that spurred your initial post with such venom. |
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John Hall
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 452
Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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mdk,
One thing you have to be able to take, as a teacher, is criticism of what you do in the classroom. If you think what you got here on this forum was tough, wait till you have a DOS sit in on your class, and critique you point-by-point after the class. You have to swallow your pride, thicken your skin, and take the criticism constructively. By doing so, you will probably learn something and become a better teacher for it.
As for Costa Rica, it is not like it used to be when it was known as the "Switzerland of Central America." There is a crime wave going on. Too many thieves and not enough effective policing. Quite a few foreign residents have left because of it. The rest of us are installing bars on the windows or buying Rottweilers. Not quite so "pura vida" any more, but I still like it here. |
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mdk
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:48 am Post subject: |
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If you think what you got here on this forum was tough, wait till you have a DOS sit in on your class, and critique you point-by-point after the class. You have to swallow your pride, thicken your skin, and take the criticism constructively. By doing so, you will probably learn something and become a better teacher for it.
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Thank you for your thoughtful note John. I actually have been there, you know.
When I taught at the great big language school recently. In my own humble opinion the reason the place was a pathetic diploma mill was because the senior staff had sold out so long ago that they didn't even remember it anymore.
In order to keep their jobs, they willingly accepted ridiculously unethical and unprofessional conditions from the administrators which they then passed through to us lower echelon teachers and thus (worst of all) to the students. This was while they prattled on about their extensive learning and professionalism. Yes, I could be wrong, but I generally know the difference between chicken salad and chicken manure.
Now it is possible that I have been unfair to some people here who are not actually the disgusting toadies which I perceived them to be - because they sounded just like the disgusting toadies I so recently worked with. If that is the case, then shame on me. But if it is not the case - then shame on them. Let the noble gods decide, eh?
The world still goes on doesn't it? You are maybe buying a Rottweiler and window bars (Be sure you install a quick release in case of fire) and Sisyphus takes a deep breath, rubs some dirt on his palms and goes back to that *&^$^ rock |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| know that you know nothing about it. Whatever worked for you as a student is not necessarily going to work for everyone else. Teaching methodology is something that has to change as long as the teaching situations change, which in our line of work, almost always do. There is no perfect single way to teach. The more you practice with just one methodology, the more you will discover its limitations. |
Definately true, everything is in flux. There is definately no one best way to teach, just as there is no one best way to learn.
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| Be humble. The best teachers I have known have always been the humblest ones, the ones always asking others what they think about different methodologies, and the ones who, just like Socrates, never boast that they know the best way. |
Certainly asking for other opinions is always a good idea. Being humble though, is sometimes a more cultural or personal quality. You can be too humble sometimes, in my opinion. Sometimes overly humble people allow others to come to harm by not intervening or not providing information alia Confucian teaching 'Do not onto others as you wish not done unto you'
Toadies? Interesting literary reference. But remember, everything is not what it seems, and even the people you despised at your last company may have had some valid points. |
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jpvanderwerf2001
Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Posts: 1117
Location: New York
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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I am a 61 year old American who spent the last winter teaching at a great big english language school in Moscow after I got my TEFL.
Long story, short - after 7 months of a 9 month contract we were both happy to go our separate ways and I am wondering if it is always going to be like this if I continue teaching overseas.
Is it all teaching rich people who don't want to study, but would rather complain that the teacher isn't good enough?
It has been my experience that students only complain when they have something to complain about. If the lessons (and teachers) are effective, they pick up on that. But that's my experience.
Either that or is it all teaching tired and bored teenagers who don't want to be there in the first place?
How is this different from any school, in any subject, in any country? I remember half of my class being asleep during Social Studies in high school, and the teacher was excellent!
Or business people who are told they have to learn the language toot sweet - or else?
If they are told by their job that they need to learn English, then some pressure is inevitable.
I mean, I can teach people English, I just can't get them ready to understand the words to "Hotel California" by the third lesson.
This is funny. I've never personally used that wretched song, but I know what you're saying.
And what's with this no use of L1? It's like trying to swim with your hands tied.
Not necessarily. I've never used L1 in my seven years of teaching (ok, perhaps I'll use one of the three words I happen to know in the local language, but mostly for comic relief), and have had a great number of students who were successful at learning English.
I wasn't taught Russian or Spanish that way and I am fluent enough in each.
What's your point here, exactly? There as many different avenues for learning any subject as there are students attempting to do.
Do all the schools overseas follow this model of instruction? (Note: Please do not feed me any rants pro or con about teaching in L1. I've had all I can stand on the subject and I know what I believe already. Just, is that the way they teach ESL everywhere?
No.
In a few months my Social Security will kick in. That with my investments would enable me to live OK in Moscow, Spain or most of Latin America. I am currently getting tired of living back in the US and when I've paid off some credit cards and rebuilt my grubstake I would like to go overseas again and padddle my own canoe.
Sounds like a good idea. Then you can teach the way you want. Problem solved.
I see myself sitting in a park - maybe that nice one in Leon next to the statue of St. Francis - with a sign that says, "English lessons - 10 euros or a plate of Bacalao"
Maybe Leon, Maybe Santiago, Maybe St. Petersburg, but you get the general idea. Is anybody else doing stuff like that? Can you tell me about it?
I am and I have, although I've never been paid in food  . I can tell you one thing, however: Flexibility is a must. Pedants will find a tough row to hoe.
Finally, I am an RN and meseems I could teach English Medical Terminology around some medical school. Is anybody doing that?
There are a great number of opportunities at universities here in Russia (if you're still here). Perhaps you could approach their medical faculty and ask around?
Good luck. |
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mdk
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Oh! You are in Vladivostok! How very interesting. Do you like it?
Can you take the ferry over to Japan and take a walking tour there? I used to think of doing that while I was working in Tomsk. I think I found out it only runs part of the year, is that so?
| Quote: |
| Pedants will find a tough row to hoe. |
Tell me about it! I taught English for 3 winters in Tomsk and always enjoyed it. Always enjoyed the challenge and finding ways to meet them. Watching the "drifters" blow into town and then crash and burn. Then I got the idea that I ought to get formally educated so I could work in Moscow. Well, in retrospect the TEFL had some useful tools to stick in my bag of tricks. I can't recommend a school where they take it as holy writ, however.
You know, I often thought if I could figure out someway to help Russian RN's get into the US job market, it would be a good thing for all concerned. The main block is the language requirement, of course. I'm currently back in the US doing registry work and building up my grubstake again. The more I think about it, the better I like targeting nursing schools for ESP work.
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| I've never used L1 in my seven years of teaching (ok, perhaps I'll use one of the three words I happen to know in the local language, but mostly for comic relief), |
I'm continually amazed. I had friends in Tomsk who had been there over a stretch and also were almost wholly innocent of Russian. I think the Russian English teachers sort of regarded them as some sort of lab animals they could bring in and demonstrate how native speakers actually do speak those words they were learning. Indeed, I once had a colleague tell me that he never messed around much with all those prepositions and stuff (I was flabbergasted)
I always found that it helps to establish a bond between the students and the teacher. I could say, If I could manage to deal with the prepositional case declensions of Russian, then you can learn to handle the past perfect use of irregular verbs. Also when they complain about the illogical nature of English you can point out some the little similar gotchas that infest Russian.
Yeah, but that's just me.
Finally, how are the mosquitos in Vladivostok? |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: |
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I have functional fluency in both Czech and Dutch, but other than the very occasional situation where it becomes time-efficient to translate or explain very briefly in the student's L1, I don't use anything but English in a teaching situation. Mostly, I'm working with upper int + level students and they have no interest in communicating during a lesson in anything other than the target language.
I could possibly see more use of L1 in lower levels. |
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guangho
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 476
Location: in transit
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| phis wrote: |
mdk said:
"Do you know of any ESL schools where you would care to see your own child teach.
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No. But then, there is no reason to be restricted to language schools. That is like asking if you would like your child to be a paperboy when he is thirty. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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mdk wrote:
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| I taught English for 3 winters in Tomsk |
Someone is not being entirely truthful here. Your original post suggested quite strongly that your teaching experience was limited to 7 months total. What's the real story here? |
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jpvanderwerf2001
Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Posts: 1117
Location: New York
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Oh! You are in Vladivostok! How very interesting. Do you like it?
I enjoy it very much, thank you. I've been here for two years and will be signing on for another year next week. It has more to do with the people than the city, however (I guess that's pretty much the case anywhere!).
Can you take the ferry over to Japan and take a walking tour there? I used to think of doing that while I was working in Tomsk. I think I found out it only runs part of the year, is that so?
I have not done, but I know a number of people who have. Logically, I'd guess that it doesn't run in wintertime. It's not all that cheap, from what I know; it's cheaper to fly, I think!
Quote:
Pedants will find a tough row to hoe.
Tell me about it! I taught English for 3 winters in Tomsk and always enjoyed it. Always enjoyed the challenge and finding ways to meet them. Watching the "drifters" blow into town and then crash and burn. Then I got the idea that I ought to get formally educated so I could work in Moscow. Well, in retrospect the TEFL had some useful tools to stick in my bag of tricks. I can't recommend a school where they take it as holy writ, however.
I think that's good. Taking anything as holy writ (apart from, perhaps, holy writ) is a dangerous path. Just my opinion, though.
You know, I often thought if I could figure out someway to help Russian RN's get into the US job market, it would be a good thing for all concerned. The main block is the language requirement, of course. I'm currently back in the US doing registry work and building up my grubstake again. The more I think about it, the better I like targeting nursing schools for ESP work.
I have a friend in New York who's doing just that: Recruiting nurses from all over the world come to the US. I try to help him recruit, and I've found--exactly as you'd indicated--that it's tough to find nurses who have a high enough level of English. He gets most of his candidates from India for that very reason.
Quote:
I've never used L1 in my seven years of teaching (ok, perhaps I'll use one of the three words I happen to know in the local language, but mostly for comic relief),
I'm continually amazed. I had friends in Tomsk who had been there over a stretch and also were almost wholly innocent of Russian. I think the Russian English teachers sort of regarded them as some sort of lab animals they could bring in and demonstrate how native speakers actually do speak those words they were learning. Indeed, I once had a colleague tell me that he never messed around much with all those prepositions and stuff (I was flabbergasted)
I have a rudimentary handle of Russian. I can "get around". However, I think none of my students would complain about this. My job is to teach English to the best of my ability. I reiterate that not being "fluent" has even been a hinderance for me in the classroom. In fact, I never let my Russian students know that I do know some Russian, because they tend to automatically translate. Whether or not translation is effective in the EFL classroom is a matter of opinion (IMO ). My colleagues never treat me as a "lab rat", BTW.
I always found that it helps to establish a bond between the students and the teacher. I could say, If I could manage to deal with the prepositional case declensions of Russian, then you can learn to handle the past perfect use of irregular verbs. Also when they complain about the illogical nature of English you can point out some the little similar gotchas that infest Russian.
I believe I have a great bond with my students; most definitely closer than most of my Russian colleagues (admittedly, this might stem from a number of factors). It's my opinion that this has less to do with knowing their language than just being a normal human being who's interesting and interested.
Yeah, but that's just me.
Finally, how are the mosquitos in Vladivostok?
In the city, I rarely notice mosquitos. Outside of the city is an entirely different story...woo-wee! And they are BIG. I'm from Minnesota, where mosquitos are the state bird, and I've never seen them so large (though the ravenous levels are the same  |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Someone is not being entirely truthful here. |
I second that. Your original post was misleading at best mdk. If you have already weathered parts of 4 years there you should have a better idea of what makes students tick there. Of course, I don't know if you were teaching the same age/same level of students for all 4 years. |
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