Job Discussion Forums

sheikh radlinrol · Joined: 30 Jan 2007 Posts: 1222 Location: Spain

I'm getting confused! According to VS the teacher at KU got into hot water for (accidentally) binning a copy of the Koran.
007 mentions Bibles and pictures of somebody's mother. Canadashirleyblue wants to know about Koran and picture.
What is the story?

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

First off ignore any and all posts by 007. Any discussion of 'pictures' was sucked from 007's thumb or wherever...

I was told by a reputable source that a teacher at KU was jailed for cleaning out his desk because in the trash can afterwards someone found a Quran.

End of story as stated and known up to this point... if anyone else has any facts to add, please do...

VS

007 · Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject:

MOD edit

miski · Joined: 04 Jul 2007 Posts: 298 Location: Kuwait

Re Miss Katherine Phillips 'stuck' in Kuwait......

Only a few days ago, there were urgent appeals to get her out of Kuwait because supposedly her physical safety was in danger. ISR was asking school personnel to resign their own positions, knowing full well that it might be hard for them to get new positions at this late date. This forum, and others, was full of diatribes against Kuwait and Kuwaitis.

And today, Ms. Phillips is complaining again, but this time because she can't come back! And ISR, instead of asking why she made a fool of them, is asking people again to resign their jobs, so that she can go back to hers!

Isn't she a hypocrite to call on people to resign and then try and get back in herself???

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

Let's have a link as proof of your allegations... otherwise that is all they are.

So, they finally let her out of the country after illegally detaining her, but she thus no longer has a job. Are you suggesting that she should be happy about this?

VS

miski · Joined: 04 Jul 2007 Posts: 298 Location: Kuwait

Well you have to be in Kuwait to read it at the moment- it was in yesterday's hard copy of the Arab Times.

'but she thus no longer has a job. Are you suggesting that she should be happy about this? '

No I'm suggesting she shouldn't rant and rave for other eople to not take up their posts in Kuwait and then try and get back there herself........

kiefer · Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 268

One man's childish vendetta gets an educator sacked then detained trying to make good on his promise "to destroy" someone who, apparently, was merely doing her job, i.e. earning her salary, a salary paid in part by the man /child when he enrolled his son in the school.

Was the educator neglecting her duties? According to all accounts--no. Should she have lost her job because she was doing her job? Of course not! Should she have been restricted from leaving the country? Absolutely not!! Should man/child have had his way? Hell no!!!

There is a pervasive, cynical view a lot of educators take in this region. "Keep putting the money in the bank--it ain't my country's future, so why should I care if the brats learn or not?" Never give a student (with the right family name) anything lower than a B +. Turn a blind eye to truancy and deliquency.

This is not simply about one teacher; this calls the whole wasta-tainted education system into account.

Having said that, boycott is a bit "pie in the sky". When I was a GCC FNG, a supervisor in Kuwait once said to me that if I was unhappy, then take a cab to the airport; the school can have a plane load of Pakistanis here to do your job for less by tomorrow." (No offense intended to people from Pakistan).

If Ms. Phillips returns to Kuwait or any other country in the Gulf, I hope she's learned her lesson: priority one is number one, take the money. Priority two, see priority one.
Would that make her detractors happy?

clovis · Joined: 06 May 2007 Posts: 23 Location: UK

I think that anyone who is prepared to work in a country where the authorities can prevent you from leaving when you have committed no crime is quite simply daft.

Quite simply, you reap what you sow. Even Miss Phillips must have been aware that this sort of thing went on. My sympathy for her has been diminished if it is indeed the case that she now wants to return to Kuwait.

miski · Joined: 04 Jul 2007 Posts: 298 Location: Kuwait

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

miski · Joined: 04 Jul 2007 Posts: 298 Location: Kuwait

Sorry to upset you veiled- when said how many bloody times I was referring to other forums where the blame is being laid at the feet of the Kuwaiti legislature.....it is not their fault she was held back at passport control but because of a case pending.

Yes I am Kuwaiti and married to one. And until we know all of the story we still don't know if what she was claiming was actually the truth- simply because Mr Marzouk refused to comment does not mean that she with the loudest voice was right.

If she had been accused of rape and a case was pending do you think she should have been allowed out of the country simply because she said she was innocent ? The crime may be different but the law is the same- if a case is pending then you must remain in the country until the case is cleared- which presumably she did. We do not know if she finally left the country because

a) she cried wolf really loudly
b) the case was investigated and cleared
c) Marzouk dropped the charge
d) the embassy stepped in
e) an embarassed country covered up a mistake.

And what is the law in America? If a private citizen files a case against an expat, can the expat simply pack up and fly out of the country legally ?

trapezius · Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject:

^ Stupid baseless cases should be thrown out from the beginning.

And so yes, the Kuw8i Government is partially to blame.

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

Certain facts are very clear here. She was never informed of any charges. She only learned of the problem some months later when she was going on normal summer leave.

These two facts alone are strongly damning of the system there.

It is not comparable to mention rape in relation to this. In fact, it is an analogy that completely destroys your side of the argument. She gave a student the school's prescribed punishment for misbehavior - and it was hardly onerous and didn't involve anything improper by any educational standard anywhere in the world.

What was improper was that a parent could go completely behind the scenes and restrict her from leaving the country. I would have no complaint if he had gone to the administration of the school and insisted that she be terminated. It would still be improper behavior on his part - and also improper of the school to fire her if she was following their written rules. Anyone who has taught in the Gulf knows that if she what she had done was wrong and involved the children of influential people, the school would have fired her immediately. That happens quite often. But obviously the school had supported what she did at the time.

The fact that it went beyond that is very damning of the legal system. The fact that she had to raise an international situation to get any action is very damning.

In the US if someone files a case against someone the proper papers must be filed with the court, and the person would have to have been served with those papers by the court. (They are normally sent by special delivery with a signature required to prove that the person had received them.) Until that has happened, the person has every right to go anywhere they want. And actually even if a person had been charged with a more serious crime - like rape since that seems your chosen comparison - there would be nothing to stop him from leaving the country and it happens all the time. In the US, there is no system of barring people at the airport for criminal charges. If you have ever listened to the US news about high profile criminal cases - normally of very rich businessmen - is that the court makes them turn in their passport. But, they could still drive to Canada or Mexico - although both countries extradite criminals back to the US.

VS

clovis · Joined: 06 May 2007 Posts: 23 Location: UK

In the UK no one can take your passport off you apart from the immigration service. No employer or citizen can prevent you from leaving the country. A friend of mine, a female, was prevented from leaving Kuwait because of a 'contractual dispute' with her employer. Her employer had the right to prevent her leaving, although she was not made aware of this by her employer at the time of her interview. If she had been made aware she would never have taken up the job. She would now never return to Kuwait.

Miski, I am glad for my sake that I would never entertain becoming a teacher in Kuwait. I do not regard it as my loss. Schools and individuals in Kuwait have prevented people leaving Kuwait, people who have not been charged, let alone found guilty, of any criminal action. Would I wish to expose myself to such actions and loss of freedom? No thank you.

The case of Miss Phillips being denied the right to leave Kuwait is not unique.

As for the report you read in the 'Daily Mail' about the supply teacher, I would like to say that although there are indeed issues relating to classrom behaviour in the UK, her actions were totally unacceptable. I am currently a supply teacher in the UK, working along the M4 corridor in places like Reading and Slough. Schools pay an agency for teachers to come in and teach, not make secretive videos. She was not taken to court, but was reprimanded by the GTC, who imposed the punishment. You have to be registered with the GTC to be able to teach. She is free to come and go from the UK and work as normal, just not as a teacher. She has most certainly not been banned from leaving the country!!!!!

I have recently worked in East Africa and the Middle East, and am returning to Africa this September. The West is not a dreamland,but at least in the E.U we have some sort of welfare system, employment rights, human rights etc. Yes, there are social inequalities, but nothing on the scale as I witnessed in East Africa or the Middle East.

It is quite simple really, people with money and influence in Kuwait can do things very easily in Kuwait which they would not be able to do in the UK or the E.U. However, that is not strictly true, as their pervasive influences have indeed been felt here in the UK, e.g recent suspension of SFO investigation into BAe deals with Saudi Arabia.

Never fear Miski, I would never dream of coming to Kuwait and polluting children's thoughts with bad ideas about how to treat people. It is not right to respect people regardless of their race or social stature. I would be wrong to tell children otherwise. I'm sure Kuwait is a fantastic place to be a filipino or asian labourer. I've heard they've got great 'rights' in Kuwait!