Job Discussion Forums

[fox1]

...about my "Hey, am I speaking Korean?" or "Dame wa dame!" lines, which I've used light-heartedly, (not singling out) and directly after students ignore "Dame!" 4 times or so:

You know, naturally, I wonder innocently if people responding here have asked a native-speaker of Japanese if they get the meaning of the line, as I intended, or whether people are frothing at the mouth (excuse the emotive language)?

Either I'm overestimating Japanese people's ability to understand such a nuanced line, or people here are underestimating it.

[craven]

shuize that's hilarious!!

You definitely have to be very careful singling students out here...but trust me, group thinking is a heck of a lot more important here than in a western classroom, and the kids can do a better job bringing sleepy koji back in line than you can sometimes Basically, these kinds of techniques will work if you're not mean or unfair about it. The reasons why the student is being made to stand must be very clear, and this is often difficult in an EFL classroom. If you're kind about it, the kids will respect you for taking control of the class.

[kdynamic]

[User N. Ame]

[fox1]

kdynamic, I mean, hey, that's why I started the thread. Thank you for the language. I'll see if I need to use it. There are a few reasons why I sometimes prefer to use Japanese commands such as these, instead of English. I don't know about your comment that phrases like "shaberu dame" (given confidently. It's all in the way you do it, remember) actively LOSE respect.

As for going the wild-man route, everyone's different. If that works, go for it. I find it funny that people are telling me I lose respect by saying shit like "hey, shaberu dame" (before I found out how to say it correctly) and yet other teachers do things that I don't respect, like standing up 17-year-olds, singling them out, making whole classes stand up because of them, grabbing their cell phones and pretending to call Mom back home, etc.

Am I mild and mannered? uhhh, I dunno. In a way. I'm civilized. I treat kids as human beings. I don't deliberately isolate or embarrass them. I just don't tolerate kids not doing what I say on the 5th time, let's say (and it doesn't matter what country I'm in).

[MrCAPiTUL]

Fox, you mentioned earlier that abc is not your type of style, nor is xyz. I think that is the point you are missing. From your post, your style is not working for that particular group. It is, perhaps, time for a change. You could try the Japanese method, which may or may not work. But I think people have given you some sound advice.

I once had a class clown that loved to disrupt with his jokes. So, I once said - I tell you what - I'll give you FIVE minutes to get to the front of the class and do a stand up routine! You're a funny guy and I want you to develop your creative capacity! Five minutes! However, if nobody laughs at your jokes, then you will simmer down. Well, as the kid was going to the front at the end of class, I told the rest of the class - if you laugh, there will be a nice essay homework assignment for you! lol. The kid couldn't think of any funny jokes to tell. What he did try telling, nobody laughed at. From then on, he was much more reserved. He wasn't perfect and had his moments, but overal it worked.

You have to remember that the Japanese have a group mentality, as well. Disciplining the class for the actions of one goes a long way! Heck, it goes a long way even here in the States!

[fox1]

[Glenski]

EDIT: I just read Mr. CAPITUL's post after putting up my own. Intersting similarities.
fox,
I am really confused about your last response to my post. I'm not sure if you are kidding around with me or being a sarcastic wiseacre. So, pardon me for some of these next remarks.

[MrCAPiTUL]

No. I didn't change the deal at all. Our deal remained the same. I just created a second deal with the rest of the class. In hindsight, the 2nd deal wasn't even really necessary. When put into the spotlight, he didn't know what to do anyway.

You say you aren't isolating kids, but really you are. The moment you tell one kid to be quiet, you isolated him/her. There are just different levels of isolation. I personally find that one of the best means of discipline is isolation mixed with the group. That may not makes sense, at first, but the story I gave is a good example. It isolated the kid and the spotlight was on him, yet the whole class was involved in the process. Get the others in the group to consider the actions of other members in their team. The key is to get them to monitor and discipline themselves, so you don't have to and can focus more on your lessons.

You have to stop thinking about what you would or wouldn't do with a class. Do what it takes to get them to respond in a positive manner. Don't go over the top and beat them or anything! lol. But within reason, do what you can.

[markle]

Well given that this is going in one ear and out the other here goes.

I used to teach high school, not here but in Thailand, but not that much removed from your situation. Only thing is I could speak Thai fluently (hell I learnt most of it at a Thai high school) and yet I virtually never used it as a displinary tool. I didn't need to.

So the logic that you have based this thread on is flawed. Even if you could speak perfect Japanese you don't need to use it. The gains you will get from being able to speak Japanese will soon evaporate as the fundamental problems that you are experiencing (with the students or with your teaching style) will continue to exist.

Finally, with all your whinging and whining are you sure you're not a Pom?

[Vince]

I worked for four years in a senmongakko (2-year business college) that had students like yours, and I kept some pretty rough classes under control. Here are some suggestions:

First, understand that addressing long-term attitude adjustments is better left to Japanese authority figures. Your students have very different priorities and frames of reference than those to which you'd appeal, and there are very few foreigners who can sincerely and effectively address that. You should focus on immediate classroom management issues, and keep it as basic as possible. It sounds like that is all you're trying to do, but I just wanted to cover that base.

I had one class that was particularly bad. A Japanese teacher asked me about them, I told him they were pretty bad, and he apparently set them straight while he had them in his lesson. For the rest of the year, they were much better. The improvement went beyond behavior and seemed to be a booster shot of character. I couldn't have achieved that in the two years I had them, let alone in a single butt chewing.

If you don't know what urusai means, you clearly don't have enough Japanese to use it in class. This could be made abundantly clear by a student answering your speaking-Korean question with "I don't know what language you're speaking, but it sure isn't Japanese." I'm not saying this to slam you, but to illustrate where the situation leads. As other posters have said, you shouldn't use Japanese regardless of your ability, because the students probably understand or are capable of quickly learning this basic English.

Speaking of capability, know that many of your students probably have a little more English than they show. Basic disciplinary commands aren't beyond them. They've been fed the cop out that they can't handle it because they're Japanese and therefore can't understand English, but you know not to accept that.

If you simply need to regain order and don't have time for language, a look is really all you need. The students know when they're doing something wrong. Just look at them as if to say "what are you thinking" (without hamming it up, which is an ineffective habit of too many EFL teachers). The students ultimately want reasonable guidance and will respect you for taking the upper hand. Not a heavy hand, but the upper hand.

[Zzonkmiles]

The best thing to do is to tell off your students in rapid English. If you attempt to do it in Japanese, you might not use the proper words or you may use an unintended nuance that makes the students laugh at your "broken Japanese" than actually pay attention to your criticism.

If you tell off your students in very fast English with a lot of idioms and terms they are unlikely to understand, you'll probably get their attention much easier. Even if they don't understand you, they'll definitely know something is wrong.

[Gypsy Rose Kim]

This is an interesting thread. I think everyone who's worked in an eikawa has overheard coworkers using poor Japanese for various reasons. Of course, the worst part is, 99% of the time the teacher is using poor Japanese to explain things the students can--or would be able to, were the instructor to being doing his/her job well--understand quite clearly in English.

I am not entirely sure it makes the students respect the individual teacher any less. Rather, it just perpetuates their prior notions (however weak or strong) that gaijin are funny, can't understand Japanese or Japanese culture, that English teachers are poorly trained, etc.

I don't mean Japanese students hate us or even that most look down on us. I'm just saying, well, this stuff is more common than we'd like to remember. And Japanese students know it.

OP, it's normal that you'd be feeling a bit defensive on this thread, but when all this dies down you'll be armed with new things to ponder. Try to evaluate yourself constantly. This isn't working, so try something else.

[gaijinalways]

[Nagoyaguy]

Frankly, we/I need more information before commenting on the OP's situation. Here are some "for examples";

a/ If you are an ALT/JET, you are basically free from disciplining the kids. If the JTE asks you to do so, they are abdicating their responsibility. It is THEIR job to ensure the environment is suitable for teaching, not yours.

b/ Do you teach the same kids all the time, or bounce from school to school? If you dont know the kids very well, it is hard to discipline them. You may inadvertently do/say something very bad. I once scolded a girl for not speaking in class (not even saying "hello"), and was told afterwards that she was selectively mute- didnt talk at school. So, care is needed.

c/ Do you control the grades the students get? My situation, I am fully in charge of their grades. My kids are told at the beginning of the year that only 60% of their final grade is based on tests and exams- the remaining 40% is based on in-class performance and behavior. If you dont control the grades, the kids wont take you seriously.

As for discipline techniques, I find that the "silence" route is pretty good. At first, the kids just kept talking. I watched the clock and timed how much of the class they wasted. After the chimes went off, they wanted to leave for their next class. No way. I told them that they had wasted 4 minutes of class time, and that they OWED me those 4 minutes. SO they had to sit and wait until that time passed. They were late for their next class, and had to explain the reason to the next teacher too!

After that, very few problems. The kids tend to police themselves much more strictly than I would- I now have to reprimand them for being too harsh on each other, using words like "uruseee" and the like.

Naming is also good. Just say the student's name. Don't mention why you are doing so- they will figure it out. When they stop the offending behavior, say "thank you" and continue.