Job Discussion Forums

[dmb]

[Cleopatra]

Sure, but that doesn't mean our side won't win.... When you've got Victor ("We all try. You succeed.") Laszlo on your side, how can you lose?

BTW I hope this thread doesn't get locked. It is definitely 'teaching related' and raises important issues which we ESL-ers in the K of SA grapple with on a daily basis.

[007]

[Latteegirl1974]

When I had to take the US national teachers exam we had strict guidelines that HAD to be followed. There was a zero tolerance policy for cheaters. I'll never forget when we had to hand in our cell phones, purses and backpacks. I guess the testing company assumes that everyone will cheat if given the opportunity? Since this is coming from my culture should I use this in a foreign classroom?

I think this thread is significant like Cleo had stated before. I am wondering if there are cultural standards that teachers and students abide by in a particular fashion that maybe misunderstood. What's important to the teacher may not be important to the culure of the students. This is a true problem. This problem exists not only in the field of education, but in religion medicine,law, and etc... What we have here is a debate on ethics. I think we should share our experiences, and stop passing judgement on each other. We are here to learn not to call each other names or fight. We are suppose to be professionals. We may not always agree but at least argue fairly.

Cleo you need to do some research on the history of "Eastern" education. Baghdad was once the heart of learning before it was burned to the ground! Do you know who invented Algebra? It came form the Arabs. So please don't think that education is new in this region. Their standards are backwards, but not their contributions to society.

[veiledsentiments]

Well latee... Cleo isn't teaching in Baghdad or the Levant or North Africa where your statement is true, nor are any of the Gulf student a part of those cultures. They may both be Arab and Muslim, but in the Gulf you find that few of their parents are educated and almost none of the grandparents. So, Cleo is right. (as she usually is, even though she tends not to always polite when she corrects people. )

I have to say that I taught outside of Saudi Arabia in the Gulf and I NEVER tolerated cheating. If anyone talked, I immediately walked over and ripped their test in half. Cell phones were put on my desk until after the exam. I had one group cheating episode where you couldn't tell who was cheating and who was trying to avoid it... so I made all of them come in on Thursday and take a new exam.

The key is administration. If they will have rules and allow teachers to enforce it, Arab kids learn the rules just as quickly as any other nationality.

VS
(welcome back dmb... we've missed you!!)

[zaylahis]

In Turkey, for high schools we had to write two sets of exam papers...we mixed the questions up so that there was paper A and paper B. These were distributed to alternate rows so you had first row with Paper A and second row with paper B. Then there were 2 teachers per class to invigilate..a local and the English teacher. Reason for the local teacher? The students were terrified of them.

At the University level, we taught first year students about plagiarism and the penalty for it ....now THAT is not a cultural thing.

I don't think cheating is cultural either . If it is, then why do most countries have invigilators..usually the class teacher and a teacher who has not taught the class? Is it not to prevent students from cheating?

In other countries, hand phones are banned from the classroom and anyone caught cheating or talking was dismissed from the classroom.

Maybe using some of these methods could work with Arab kids?

[scot47]

The jumbled questions technique, with an A version and a B version is standard practice in Saudi Arabia.

Trying to get over the ban on plagiarism is more difficult. I hear it is a problem in the "First World" too.

[Stephen Jones]

Congratulations spiral 78; in your ten weeks of teaching Saudi students in Canada, you have gained more insight than trapezius in his whole life, or VS and Cleo in half theirs.

What we consider cheating is considered helping your friend; it's an expression of one of the better traits in Saudi society. The trouble of course is that it does make competitive exams rather more taxing to administer.

I am amazed that VS condoned cheating in Saudi, even though she policed it elsewhere. The truth is that the education ministry and universities go to great extents to ensure it is difficult. Teach in a school and come exam time all the posters on the wall have to go down, and the whole Saudi civil service grinds to a halt because they are sent to the schools to ensure the anti-cheating measures are in place.

Universities and colleges all have strict rules, and there are always two separate versions of an exam. As a result there should be little cheating. There are still exceptions -- the mobile phone under the ghutra is one so now we ask students to leave their ear clearly in site, and impersonation is not unknown (in one case the student rushed out of the hall and winged it down to the exit with a couple of invigilators hot in pursuit).

As a result of these measures cheating in exams is at a fairly low level in any place I have worked in Saudi.

Incidentally, the most inventive are the Spanish. Some high school students I knew spent a whole week going through the trash cans at school to piece together the shredded original handwritten version of their exam. Physics formulae (and whole summaries of textbooks) would be placed in paper in minute handwriting inside clear plastic biros (the Egyptians are less bright; one I was supervising wrote the physics formulae on his arm, and then came to the exam in a short-sleeved shirt).

As for the OP's question about schools, the answer is simple. Send the kid to the British School if you are in Riyadh, and then go home when he gets to 14. When we worked at Manarat the primary head and I used to tell any parents who applied not to think of our place but to pony out the difference and send them to the British school. None ever did unfortunately!

As for the quality of Saudi students, like Scot47 I agree most of ours are pleasant and well-mannered; not all are assidious however, but what to do!

People attacking Saudis for cheating should look at the efforts they have to go to in the States to stop people pasting from the Internet. There are sites where you can get an Oxbridge undergrad to write your essay for you!

[Cleopatra]

[007]

[Cleopatra]

[Latteegirl1974]

I guess Cleo has never heard the teachings of Prophet Muhammed. He's made a great contribution to the world.

[Cleopatra]

And now the question is....

Who is going to teach Lattegirl how to use the present perfect?

[007]

[Cleopatra]