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TheLongWayHome

Joined: 07 Jun 2006 Posts: 1016 Location: San Luis Piojosi
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| MELEE wrote: |
| Keeping your mouth shut is a very good policy for foreigners. That's my approach to religion. When Mexicans I barely know start to ask me about my religious beliefs I try to be a vague and evasive as possible without being rude. I respect their religion and would never try to change their beliefs, unfortunately most non-catholic faiths represented in Mexico spend most of their time actively trying to convert people. And I've found that while many Mexicans are open to a wide gama of political ideologies when it comes to religion, its "my way or the highway". |
Yes, I do find this strange for a country that celebrates independence from Spain every year. They speak Spanish, they love the religion, the architecture is pretty much intact, the education system... stop! There's just too much independence from Spain in this place.
Ironically most Mexicans do not like the Spanish either. What happened? Well, it seems to me that whoever was in control of Mexico at that time, still controls it today, just under the covert guise of 'independence'.
You will find the same situation in any country that has an 'indepnedence day'. It just marks the change from overt to covert control. When you have in place all the systems of control: language, education, government, religion, banking etc. there is no need to physically be there occupying the territory.
Of course George Bush was never elected. He is there because he is part of the same bloodline that nearly all US presidents come from - any election is just a smokescreen to make the people believe they have a choice. |
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john_n_carolina

Joined: 26 Feb 2006 Posts: 700 Location: n. carolina
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| TheLongWayHome wrote: |
Of course George Bush was never elected |
...what's even more ironic is that the hispanic-latino vote of the Pensacola Bay area was 1 of the 2 downfalls for Kerry. if you remember, Florida was so close, i think it was in the 5,000 vote range. and the Pensacola area was the last to report and swing the electoral votes to GW.
the other tie-breaker was Western Ohio. so, you're talking 20,000-30,000 vote difference and Kerry is in, and maybe the world a lot different ?
p.s. MELEE, you had a nice post. that's exactly how i behaved in L.America...very rarely discussing religion, politics. stay on the topic of futbol and dancing and music, and everyone will be happy  |
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Guy Courchesne

Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 9650 Location: Mexico City
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| p.s. MELEE, you had a nice post. that's exactly how i behaved in L.America...very rarely discussing religion, politics. stay on the topic of futbol and dancing and music, and everyone will be happy Smile |
I honestly think this is a shame...a lost opportunity. What makes us think Mexicans can't/won't discuss politics or religion with a foreigner? Mexicans are people, like you and I...intelligent folk who are fully capable of conversation on a wide array of topics. Having a discussion about politics doesn't necessarily amount to being that ugly American telling the 'backwards Mexicans' how they should live.
I've not had the experiences you and Melee have had...might be for my being in much more liberal Mexico City. This city is full of thinkers, conversationalists, conservatives, liberals, and the genuinely curious, but I've not run into any problems having wonderful political conversation in Chiapas, Guerrero, Jalisco, and Aguascalientes as well. |
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dixie

Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 644 Location: D.F
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| "The American people are nice. They are good people. And we don't have anything against them. Some things that the government does against us, that's the problem." |
Just thought it was an interesting quote in light of what is being discussed. Especially considering that it comes from "Nacho" Chavez - younger brother of the one and only Venezuelan president.
The quote comes from a Times article (I didn�t realize how many Chavez�there were in office!).
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1680314,00.html |
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MELEE

Joined: 22 Jan 2003 Posts: 2583 Location: The Mexican Hinterland
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Oh I talk about politics.
Religion, that's what I try to stay away from.
Also note I said that with "Mexicans I barely know". But I also avoid the conversation with the extended family. I need to live harmoniously with them. And while yes, they are
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| ...intelligent folk who are fully capable of conversation on a wide array of topics |
, religion isn't one of them if you want them to accept you. If you are just passing through sure, talk to them. But I have found Mexicans are very unaccepting and judgemental of people of other religious beliefs.
Maybe this is because I live in a city this about 25% of the population Jehovah's Witness and 75% Catholic--caught in a never ending redition of dualing banjos. |
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Guy Courchesne

Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 9650 Location: Mexico City
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe this is because I live in a city this about 25% of the population Jehovah's Witness and 75% Catholic--caught in a never ending redition of dualing banjos. |
Jehovas are pretty active in DF too. Have no idea what they do the rest of the week though.
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| religion isn't one of them if you want them to accept you. |
Again, my experience here is very different from yours. I don't find that people here are very different from my own Catholic upbringing back home. Mostly secular folk who go to church infrequently and highly tolerant of others. As for other religions, I've known a fair number of Buddhists, Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, Jews, and Muslims here in DF and other spots and none ever found religion a topic to avoid (yeah, I like to yak about this stuff), nor did they ever try to convert me.
Been walking past a Buddhist center every week or so in my new neighborhood, always thinking about paying a visit.
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| 25% of the population Jehovah's Witness |
That seems really high...something about your town that draws them? I assume there's a big Kingdom Hall about somewhere? |
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TheLongWayHome

Joined: 07 Jun 2006 Posts: 1016 Location: San Luis Piojosi
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| MELEE wrote: |
| Maybe this is because I live in a city this about 25% of the population Jehovah's Witness and 75% Catholic--caught in a never ending redition of dualing banjos. |
Religion works well in Mexico as a) they always need someone else to blame and b) they always need someone to ask for things and c) they always need to be right. I personally find religion laughable, even moreso when you hear hypocritical Mexicans enforcing it. |
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jfurgers

Joined: 18 Sep 2005 Posts: 442 Location: Mexico City
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: |
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I didn't think there were people left who REALLY believe that ANY government represents its people or that a vote REALLY counts. ALL politicians in every country, once in office listen to the money. Big corporations make the decisions. This is common knowledge to anyone who's over 19 yrs old and has any kind of real life experience.
Even if the American people had put Bush in office, once he was in he, like all the others listen and do what the real leaders tell them to. Real leaders I mean BIG BUSINESS. Pharmacutical companies and the leaders of huge corporations. THEY make the decisions. They're called lobbyists.
Probably the same with the Mexican government also. Regarding religion, everytime I'm in DF talking with my wifes brothers, they always bring up religion and how much they think the catholic church is a joke. Probably why they like me because I'm no fan of the catholic church but I have no problem with people who are catholic.
I have always let Mexicans know what I think about religion IF THEY ASK me. In DF they really do seem to be independent thinkers which is why I like it there. They don't follow a religion or other socially constructed ideas just because someone tries to program them to.
My wifes brothers always tell me that they question everything and that they don't blindly follow any ideology. |
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cangringo

Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 327 Location: Vancouver, Canada
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:00 am Post subject: |
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I haven't had a chance to read all of this but I wanted to throw something in about Canada. Not everyone even takes French in school and for the most part in BC we only take French for a few years. I don't know French to save my life...I hated it in school and stopped as soon as I could and now I remember a few words but nothing much really.
And technically soy milk is juice...I know what we call it but technically you can't milk soybeans...  |
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john_n_carolina

Joined: 26 Feb 2006 Posts: 700 Location: n. carolina
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| p.s. MELEE, you had a nice post. that's exactly how i behaved in L.America...very rarely discussing religion, politics. stay on the topic of futbol and dancing and music, and everyone will be happy Smile |
I honestly think this is a shame...a lost opportunity. |
....yes, you're right Guy, i did feel bad sometimes that i wasn't talking about those topics. actually, i was on a Cultural Exchange 12VII visa, that prohibited me from discussing politics, religion, protests, etc.
even still, those topics 'seeped' into the class.
do you know after 9/11 i had to kick out 3 people in one semester? they were praising Bin Laden, and said, "if i met him in person i would congratulate him and tell him to continue with 100 more strikes on every building and shopping mall in the US??"
anyways, outside of the classroom 1-1 with natives, was OK. there, you wouldn't risk the chance of students 'dropping' out of your classes because of the political debate fighting between students. and, i did have one girl drop out when all this talk of war, religion, etc started after 9/11. |
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cangringo

Joined: 18 Jan 2007 Posts: 327 Location: Vancouver, Canada
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Same with my students who are from Mexico. They never want to help me with Spanish, they always tell me, Teacher! you have to speak only in English to us! They always tell me that when they try to practice English in the stores a lot of the North Americans say no, help me with my Spanish. |
I wish...I have students that complain that they're classes are in English and they don't learn anything. These are students who have made a marked improvement in the few months I've been teaching them all in English - but after taking 5 years of it, they can barely speak and i won't go into the grammar.
on the political side...i won't even mention the war...it wouldn't be polite. Yes, the people vote someone in, however that is usually before that person has lied, cheated, stolen or whatever other horrible things they do when they get into office. Some of us keep thinking that this time it will be different...oh please let it be different. Of course a lot have just given up and vote for the lesser of the evils...representative of the people...it's another thing that sounds good in theory.
As for Mexicans, I have also found no problems in discussing an array of topics with them...ok usually it's my husband because he speaks much better Spanish than I but we haven't had any problems discussing any topic even religion. |
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GueroPaz
Joined: 07 Sep 2007 Posts: 216 Location: Thailand or Mexico
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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The human rights observers in the Conflict Zone talked politics a lot, and the many religions of Chiapas. We worked with priests, missionariesm and sectarian, including victims and perpetrators. My neighbor at the beach, who'd lived in southernmost Chiapas for sixty years and had a son who'd worked in Comitan, asked me to explain the conflict to him!
Here in Thailand, when American politics comes up, I say I do not agree with my president, and I oppose all war everywhere by everybody. No arguments with the locals on that one. Perhaps I already shared here what I answered when the students at the DF airport asked me a political question. |
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M@tt
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 473 Location: here and there
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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i haven't had many serious conversations with people about politics. when the whole amlo thing was going on, people in DF made passing comments about him all the time, but it wasn't anything meaty enough to constitute a real discussion of politics.
the best conversations i've had have been about religious faith. i think that if you're serious about your convictions, people notice eventually. if you spend enough time with them, they're likely to start asking questions. then you end up in a conversation because they're just plain curious. my impression is that there's a real lack of religious dialogue that is important to people. i mean that they may be surrounded by the trappings of religious institutions, but nobody who takes it/them seriously enough to get into a conversation about their beliefs. i think the catholic church has many strengths but dialogue is not one of them; bible study is not either. |
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