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MO39
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: reptile houses |
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| geaaronson wrote: |
As for their getting too large, why at some point, you turn liberator and let them go back to the wild. Even if they can`t survive, having lived a healthy but captive life, the few weeks of freedom would be a godsend for a turtle. |
So where precisely in highly-urbanized Mexico City would you propose setting your now-too-large-to-fit-in-your-apartment turtle free? What about the green lake in Chapultepec? Or maybe you could donate it to the Chapultepec zoo? |
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Gary Denness
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:22 am Post subject: Re: reptile houses |
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| geaaronson wrote: |
There`s a street vendor in Metro Tacubaya who is selling baby turtles along with plastic trays to keep them.
As far as the selmonella issue, my father was a veterinarian. We had turtles. There were pets that he did not allow such as doberman pinschers, but turtles were never on his contraband list.
I have known more people who have contracted cat disease than selmonella from turtles. Actually, I know of no one who has contracted selmonella from a turtle. As for their getting too large, why at some point, you turn liberator and let them go back to the wild. Even if they can`t survive, having lived a healthy but captive life, the few weeks of freedom would be a godsend for a turtle. |
In the 70's turtles became popular pets in the US until about a quarter of a million kids, it is believed, caught salmonella from them. The US govt enacted a law banning the sale and distribution of most turtles. It has all pretty much been forgotten and they are becoming popular again....history. Repeating. |
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Gary Denness
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| MO39 wrote: |
| Or wait till I have a bigger apartment someday... |
If you wait long enough, till I end up going back to the UK, I have seven very cute turtles to choose from!  |
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lozwich
Joined: 25 May 2003
Posts: 1536
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: |
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I realise I'm a bit late coming in on this, but I actually had to go to work today 
Its not your little pet turtle's welfare that needs to be worried about when you let it into the wild. Its the impact it can have on the native environment if it survives. Much like its not a good idea to flush your little goldfish down the loo and into the water system (or alligator for that matter, using history to guide us) a turtle can take over the food supply of local ecosystems and cause havoc, and bring illness and so on and so forth.
Sure, have a turtle, but its a big responsibilty and a long term committment. |
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MO39
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 1970
Location: El ombligo de la Rep�blica Mexicana
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| I'm pleased that, after a slow start, my thread has inspired so many posts - who would have thought that so many people like turtles! I was wondering if there was a sort of "toy" species of turtle available in Mexico that would not grow to a prohibitive size. I really hate giving up the idea of adopting a couple of these cute reptiles. |
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geaaronson
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 948
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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I note that there are some people on this thread that think like New Yorkers. Ever see the poster by Ben Shahn, NYC takes up 75% of American and the remainder of the country fills 25%.
D.F. is only a small part of Mexico. Just take the tortuga to Lago de Bravo or somewhere. If you care enough for it, let it go in the wild. And yes, I am perfectly serious. most of our pets would return to the wild and happily so if given the opportunity. Try it sometime and see if it comes back to you. Dogs, cats and pigeons excepted. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Ever tried it yourself? I really think you're on a bad idea here...
While extreme, I'll point out the case of Keiko, the killer whale, of Hollywood fame in Free Willy. Keiko spent time in Ontario, Mexico City and Oregon, and eventually freed into the ocean. His fate? Dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiko_(orca)
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The plan to return him to the wild was a topic of much controversy. Some felt his years of domestication made such a return impossible. Nevertheless, the next step in the plan happened on September 9, 1998, when he was flown to Klettsvik Bay in Vestmannaeyjar in Iceland. His day-to-day care became the responsibility of the Ocean Futures Society. He underwent training designed to prepare him for his eventual release, including supervised swims in the open ocean.
During one of these "walks" his trainers lost track of Keiko in the open ocean off Iceland on July 11, 2002. Unable to locate him with the satellite tracking device attached to his dorsal fin, Keiko was finally spotted 870 miles away off the coast of Norway . In September, he followed a fishing boat to Halsa in Norway where he allowed fans to play with him and crawl over his back. Local marine biologists found him hungry and having lost weight during his ordeal in the North Atlantic. Several days later his handlers arrived and soon thereafter enticed him to nearby Taknes Bay, hoping to discourage his interaction with humans. They hoped a passing pod of orcas would "adopt" Keiko and lead him back to the open ocean. The pod of orcas never appeared, forcing his trainers to continue to feed and care for Keiko.
Keiko died from pneumonia while in the wild December 12, 2003. He had become lethargic and had a loss of appetite. He had beached himself in the morning and died. He was 27 years of age, very old for a captive orca, but young for a wild one. Following requests from fans of the orca and Free Willy, the Oregon Coast Aquarium held a memorial service for him on February 20, 2004. 700 people attended the service, at which the aquarium's veterinary chaplain said, "Keiko was not one of our kind, but nonetheless was still one of us."
There is a memorial site for Keiko set up by the locals in Halsa, Norway, where the famous whale spent the last year of his life. |
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lozwich
Joined: 25 May 2003
Posts: 1536
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| geaaronson wrote: |
| If you care enough for it, let it go in the wild. |
And I repeat, maybe you will be happy thinking your turtle has gone to live on its own little "farm" somewhere. Taking with it all its lovely diseases that it is going to share with the natural system you are unnaturally introducing it into, and quite possibly killing a lot more things than just your little turtle. |
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geaaronson
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 948
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: to continue the discussion |
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Guy, all animals die.You`ve given me only one example, one whale.
I heartily disagree with you. Having been in prison for most of their lives, once an animal is given freedom he relishes it more than had he lived free in the wild all his life. Our pets give us mutual satisfaction. They enjoy being fed petted fussed over. But let`s face it. They are in captivity. Our popular domesticated critters prefer captivity but a bird, snake, turtle would choose to be in the wild in a heartbeat. That is their true nature.
I do believe that most of the animal kingdom are rightwingers by birth. I say this in jest, but it`s true. Their motto is LIVE FREE OR DIE: It`s us humans that are interdependent and codependent. Same for dogs. Cats lack codependency. So, I stick by what I say. Let the critter go when he gets bigger. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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I really hope you're kidding now...
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| I do believe that most of the animal kingdom are rightwingers by birth. |
Totally...but you're not talking about animals born in the wild. You're talking about animals/pets born in captivity, turtle, cats, pigeons, whatever you want. What you're doing is personifying nature, and the end result, every time, is tragedy. The 'wild' is not whatever lies outside New York City my friend..the wild is a very different place than you imagine.
Here's a fine example...let's take you as an animal. If we were to drop you off in a remote African jungle, how long do you think you'd survive? How much would you affect the local flora and fauna as you flail for survival?
Last edited by Guy Courchesne on Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lozwich
Joined: 25 May 2003
Posts: 1536
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: to continue the discussion |
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| geaaronson wrote: |
| a bird, snake, turtle would choose to be in the wild in a heartbeat. That is their true nature. |
Then how can you justify having a pet bird, snake or turtle in the first place? Why not reduce demand for having these wild creatures as pets by not supporting the market, and not buying one?
| geaaronson wrote: |
| Let the critter go when he gets bigger. |
As do I. I'm from a country that's indigenous wildlife has been ravaged by previous generations' thoughts that it didn't matter if their little fluffy bunny escaped, or the foxes they imported for hunting got free, or the animals (cane toads, carp) introduced to solve one problem created problems thousands of times bigger. You are not unconnected to the planet. Leaving your pet in the wild has greater ramifications than you realise. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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I once had a domestic bird in Prague. He was from generations of domesticated birds, and the CR was obviously not salubrious in terms of climate. He calculated, escaped, and flew away as fast as possible. I hope he had a couple of hours of exhilaration before encountering hard reality. I can't even speculate whether it was worth it to him or not... but I'd have kept him in captivity if I'd had the choice, though I'd have felt responsible for making it as 'free' a level of captivity as possible.
Thank god the dog is a pack animal, and we're his pack. No guilt. No more birds for me!! |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Good point, Lozwich. Maybe the really ethical choice is not to choose to support the industry that produces non-domesticatable animals as pets. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry, MO! |
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lozwich
Joined: 25 May 2003
Posts: 1536
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe the really ethical choice is not to choose to support the industry that produces non-domesticatable animals as pets. |
Its not only that. Don't get me started on the illegal seahorse trade, or the fact that zillions of tropical fish are stolen from Colombian waters and parrots are routinely yanked from their natural environments to be sold on the black market. This creates a situation where there are tons of these animals alive, but very few of them actually living in their natural homes.
Its just plain depressing, but very important to be aware of IMHO. |
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