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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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 Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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You should quit while you're ahead!  some people will never get it!
I think in this jungle called life we have to believe that we are better than anyone in anything we undertake, and if we are not, we have to strive to be. This, I believe, balanced with a dose of humility and the ability to laugh at ourselves is the key to success. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Samantha wrote: |
jfurgers wrote:
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| Entering grades into a computer for example should be the job of the secretary, not the teachers. |
And you are basing this statement on what? Experience in the United States? |
Zing...got him. No Furgers Left Behind. |
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jfurgers
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 442
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| Samantha wrote: |
Jillford64 wrote:
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So what you are saying here is that you are better than the average Mexican? And because you aren't a Mexican you should be treated better than they are? |
That's exactly how I read it to mean. |
Of course that's how you took it because you see everything related to Mexico through your rose colored glasses. Take them off once in a while. You'll see things in a more BALANCED light. |
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jfurgers
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 442
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| Samantha wrote: |
jfurgers wrote:
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| Entering grades into a computer for example should be the job of the secretary, not the teachers. |
And you are basing this statement on what? Experience in the United States? |
No. It's called logical thinking. Use your brain....think....the secretaries have MORE time than the teachers, at least at the HH I was working for.
I'm simply amazed that you can't grasp the simple statements I make. Amazing. |
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jfurgers
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 442
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
You should quit while you're ahead! some people will never get it!
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Sooooo true Phil_K. Especially with certain people on this forum. |
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Samantha
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 2038
Location: Mexican Riviera
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: |
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jfur: Last I checked, this forum was open to all to express opinions (in a grown up way, preferably, and within the forum guidelines) without being attacked with name calling and personal insults. Let's try to be the professionals we claim to be. Good grief!
Harmon Hall, your first job here and where you worked for a very short time, had a secretary. That's pretty nice, but please realize that not all schools have secretaries who wait on teachers or even have computers for that matter. That's why I asked what you based your comment on. I see you were not prepared to answer that.
If you REALLY want the folks out there in ESL land to know the real deal, as you claim you do, then maybe knock off the agression and recognise the difference between how you think it should be and the way it really is here in Mexico... I, amongst others here, have worked in Mexico for the past several years, and certainly don't have "rose colored glasses" on. Do you even know what that means? Give me one example of something I have posted that would come remotely close to what you insist on spewing about me. (That's getting old, BTW)
What I am completely guilty of, is being respectful of the culture and country I have chosen to live in and become a citizen of. I have never once said life is perfect here, nor would I encourage newbies to believe it is. Au contraire. Hello? |
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jillford64
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 397
Location: Sin City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Again I have to explain my simple statements to a liberal thinking EFLer.
See if you can stay with me on this, OK? AmI better than the average Mexican? No,but I have MORE OPTIONS when it comes to teaching EFL than a Mexican would have.
Should I be treated better than a Mexican? Again, no BUT....I am MORE VALUABLE to many language schools because I can help with pronunciation and fluency better than ANY Mexican. I see the MANY huge flaws that are in many of the texts,Mexicans CAN'T see those things because they're not native speakers.
You have to use your brain a little. |
Not everyone that participates on this forum is a liberal EFLer, as we established in a earlier thread where you jumped to the same conclusion, nor are any of us stupid, as you imply.
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| I think people reading this forum before coming to Mexico should see both sides of the coin. |
I agree. For all those would be Mexico TEFLers out there, I'm going to examine some statements based on my experience and observations teaching in Mexico.
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| I am MORE VALUABLE to many language schools because I can help with pronunciation and fluency better than ANY Mexican. I see the MANY huge flaws that are in many of the texts,Mexicans CAN'T see those things because they're not native speakers. |
In my opinion, TEFLers often over estimate their worth as a native English speaker. While a native English speaker largely will be more valuable than many Mexican teachers, they are not necessarily MORE VALUABLE than ANY Mexican teacher, nor are they more valuable in every situation. How valuable a TEFLer is will depend on the quality of the Mexican teachers they are surrounded by. Generally, the more reputable the school, the better quality the Mexican teachers will be. Generally, the bigger the pool of Mexican teachers to draw from, the better quality they will be. The TEFLer�s value will also depend on his qualifications for teaching, what the students want in a teacher, and to some extent how much Spanish they speak. Some possible scenarios are described below.
Some Mexicans teaching English in Mexico are completely bilingual with no accent at all in either language often because they were born in Mexico but lived in an English speaking country during part of their childhood/teens. They can teach fluency and pronunciation and find flaws (huge or not) in texts as well as any native-English TEFLer. They understand the similarities and differences between the two languages, the idiomatic expressions, and the nuances of when things directly translate and when they don't. Because they learned English as a second language, they know where students will have the most difficulty and how to teach those areas so the students really understand it. A fully bilingual TEFLer, at best, will be of equal value to the fully bilingual Mexican teacher. A non-bilingual TEFLer will be less valuable.
Many Mexican English teachers speak English nearly fluently or at an advanced level with a light to moderate (but completely understandable accent). Some are going to speak English well, but have a heavy accent. Most of these will have lived in an English-speaking country as an older teen or as an adult, but some of them will have learned English entirely in Mexico. A native-English TEFLer will have value over this group with pronunciation, fluency, picking out flaws in texts, grammar, writing, etc. The TEFLer�s value may be slight or it may be significant, depending on the situation.
Many Mexican English teachers speak English at a basic or intermediate level, have a strong or unintelligible accent, don�t understand and can�t explain the grammar, don�t know the idiomatic expressions and phrasal verbs, etc. These teachers usually do more harm than good. A TEFLer provides significant value in this case.
I can't say what kind of teachers a TEFLer will be surround by. As one example, at the language school where I worked about 9% of the teachers were non-Mexican (some were native-English speakers, some of were not; none were completely bilingual, but some spoke Spanish really well); about 13% were Mexicans who were fully bilingual in both languages (these teachers were in the highest demand); about 67% were Mexicans who were highly fluent to advanced level speakers with a light to moderate accent; and about 11% were Mexicans who were the new teachers that the school was trying out. The new teachers were advanced speakers, but often they were let go after one session (5 weeks) because they had too strong of an accent, couldn�t explain the grammar, weren�t good teachers, didn�t show up on time, or had some other fatal flaw. None were totally inept. Admittedly, this school did a better job than some schools of weeding out incompetent teachers. Non-Mexican teachers that were being sponsored for a work permit had to have a CELTA-like certificate. Mexican teachers were required to complete an in-house teacher-training program that was more rigorous than a CELTA-like program. Mexicans teaching the advanced classes or the grammar review classes were required to pass the Cambridge Certificate in Advanced English.
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| I can help with pronunciation�better than ANY Mexican. |
TEFLers cannot help with pronunciation better than ANY mexican if the Mexican is fully bilingual. TEFLers may not even be as helpful as the nearly fluent or advanced level English speakers; these Mexican teachers can often explain differences in pronunciation between the two language better than a non-Spanish speaking TEFLer. In addition, a non-native English speaker who has developed a good accent can often explain the physical movements of the jaw and tongue placement better than a native English speaker.
Along the lines of pronunciation, would be TEFLers should keep in mind that students may not want a teacher with their particular native accent. In Mexico, most of the students will probably prefer a standard American or Canadian accent because that is what they are most used to from movies, TV, or their relatives in the US or because it is the accent of the people/company they work for or do business with. Some are going to prefer a British accent, especially if they do business with non-US and Canadian firms or if they are taking the Cambridge exams. Some students are going to prefer a Mexican teacher with a Mexican accent because that is what they understand the best, especially if they are just starting out or if they have never had a native-English teacher. Some aren�t going to care one way or another. Some care, but they aren�t going to complain. Some care, and they are going to complain. As an anecdotal example, I am from the western US. I worked with an Irish and a British teacher. All three of us got complaints and had students change classes because they did not like or could not understand our accents.
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| AmI better than the average Mexican? No,but I have MORE OPTIONS when it comes to teaching EFL than a Mexican would have. |
Options for the TEFLer are going to depend on their qualifications and status to work in Mexico. More qualifications equal more options. Well-qualified Mexican teachers probably have the same amount or more options than the average TEFLer.
Mexican companies are limited to the number of non-Mexican workers they can hire and sponsor for a work permit. The ratio seems to be about 1 non-Mexican for every 10 Mexicans. Generally, reputable schools are going to follow the rules more closely than less reputable schools. I know where I worked, TEFLers were turned away all the time because they could only sponsor 4 work permits.
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| Perhaps but not all language schools require their teachers to do those things. |
True, and more power to the TEFLer that can get a job that pays for these things. Most Mexico TEFLers are going to spend part of their time working for free. The more money you make, the less bad you are going to feel when you are working for free.
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| I would have had to use all of my free time. |
The amount of preparation a TEFLer does is going to depend on how much teaching experience they have, the curriculum they are teaching, and whether they�ve taught that curriculum before. Newbies generally spend more time prepping than oldbies. How much time you spend grading is going to depend on the schools requirements. Newbies may find that they don�t have a lot of free time when they are first starting out. |
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jillford64
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 397
Location: Sin City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Use your brain....think....the secretaries have MORE time than the teachers, at least at the HH I was working for. |
Wow! That is one lucky secretary. The secretary where I worked is busy trying to register and take payments from 800 students for the new session on the same day that 800 grades from the old session are being entered (by the teachers, for free) in the computer. Clearly, she doesn't have enough work. |
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jfurgers
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 442
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Samantha wrote: |
What I am completely guilty of, is being respectful of the culture and country I have chosen to live in and become a citizen of. |
You are NOT respectful with Mexico, you see it as being perfect and you ALWAYS run to its defense whenever someone points out one of its many flaws. All I'm doing is pointint out SIMPLE realities
You,and others like you, can't handle that. |
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jfurgers
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 442
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Samantha wrote: |
If you REALLY want the folks out there in ESL land to know the real deal, as you claim you do, then maybe knock off the agression and recognise the difference between how you think it should be and the way it really is here in Mexico...
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How I think and how it really is?? You simply amaze me. The way it is is what I'm pointing out. This is not my opnion it's a FACT. Mexicans get paid NOTHING. THINK. |
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jfurgers
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 442
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Samantha wrote: |
Harmon Hall, your first job here and where you worked for a very short time, had a secretary. That's pretty nice, but please realize that not all schools have secretaries who wait on teachers or even have computers for that matter. That's why I asked what you based your comment on. I see you were not prepared to answer that.
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Not prepared? The answer I gave was incredibly LOGICAL, hence the reason why you thought I wasn't prepared to answer it. Trying to explain SIMPLE things to you is getting old.
You OBVIOUSLY don't get it so I'm just going to try and ignore your little Oh my God don't say bad things about my Mexico mentality and keep posting my LOGICAL perspectives of Mexico
Not what I think Mexico should be like but the REALITIES that are a part of Mexico. I and others like me will make sure newbies have BOTH views of Mexico, not just your perfect, unrealistic view. Plus, there's nothing disrespectful about pointint out the flaws of a country.
Phil_K is correct. I need to quit while I'm ahead because, as he said, some people will never get it. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
| Milenka wrote: |
| jfurgers wrote: |
| Milenka wrote: |
| jfurgers wrote: |
| I'm not a Mexican, I won't work for free. |
I'm Mexican and won't work for free! |
Good for you, but there are many Mexicans who DO work for hardly nothing. This is a simple reality here in Mexico. |
True, and as far as I can see, it is also true that a good number of English native speakers who come down here and work for peanuts, with or without teaching qualifications. I fail to understand why. |
Maybe 'cos Mexican peanuts go a lot further than American, British, etc peanuts! |
Plenty of Mexicans go to the US illegally and work for peanuts, often while doing back-breaking labor and with no bennies or job security of any kind. Why? I often wonder what makes people endure that. Lack of jobs in Mexico? Yes, that's some of it. I also think that Mexicans realize how terrible their own companies are (that includes the multi-nationals all too often as well) and what the working conditions are like here. Even a professional with a degree is often treated no better than the average factory worker.
Harmon Hell is considered a terrible place to work by many. I have also met many, many students that didn't learn much there and were ripped off.
I will also continue to call it like I see it. The good and the bad about living and teaching in Mexico.
I can and have made a lot more $$$ working in the US. I am still here for reasons of my own. I consider most of the salaries in Mexico to be peanuts, but I am still here. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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I have done plenty of paper work and I consider it a part of the job in teaching English in Mexico. It sucks, but it comes with the territory. Of course if you're working 50 hours a week and then you have to write down everything and transfer it inot a computer, well that really sucks big time. No PTO and no bennie's of any kind? Can't even pay you on time? Hit the road Jack. Get on the bus Gus. Make a new plan Stan. You don't need to discuss much. Just get on the bus (microbus that is  )  and get yourself free
There are good and bad parts of any country and it's culture. Some of us like it here more than others. But we all have something to say. I don't view Mexico in any special way. I think that a quick study of it's history, politics, culture and economy will reveal much about why this is still a third world country and probably will be for the next 50 years. Nothing much will change here and that seems to be because Mexicans don't want to make changes and sacrifice to make this a better country. If all you care about is yourself and today, what can or will you do about tomorrow and your children?
Just look at recent Mexican politics. Then look a the the age of Diaz and the revolution of 1910. Around 1.5-2 million Mexicans died and the country was ruined economically. For what? To replace the dictatorship of one man with the dictatorship of one party, the PRI. Yet, the revolution is celebrated and upheld as a great event in Mexican history. It was a terrible tragedy.
Mexico and Mexicans continue to blame others for their problems, starting with the US. They need to look at themselves for their failures and for solutions to the problems which Mexico faces. |
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Samantha
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 2038
Location: Mexican Riviera
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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jfur wrote:
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| Phil_K is correct. I need to quit while I'm ahead because, as he said, some people will never get it. |
Well he's certainly right about that. Check it out, because you never know, he might be willing to hire you. Actually, after reading your posts, there is probably a line up of employers on the forum just chomping at the bit to get their hands on your resume. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Samantha wrote: |
jfur wrote:
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| Phil_K is correct. I need to quit while I'm ahead because, as he said, some people will never get it. |
Well he's certainly right about that. Check it out, because you never know, he might be willing to hire you. Actually, after reading your posts, there is probably a line up of employers on the forum just chomping at the bit to get their hands on your resume. |
Oh, yes Sam. That's a very mature response. It just goes to show you're not above anyone else when it comes to name calling and all so respectful posts.
Many people take things way too personal. If somebody makes an anti-HH comment the HH people jump to it's defense even though it's a large franchise and the working and teaching conditions from one HH to another can be as different as night and day. The same when it comes to saying things about Mexico that are not 100% positive.
Question  McDonalds is also a very large franchise chain. It's international in scope  . But the quality of the product and the service are consistant regardless of where you go to eat  . If it's Los Angeles, New York, Moscow, Mexico City, Lima, or Tokyo you expect to get the same tasty  Big Mac and you do . Also, do the people that work at McDonalds work 50 hours a week and then get screwed on their pay? I don't think so. In fact, do you have to put in more work and hours while you're at home and not at the store Do you have to pre-mix shakes and do the payroll at home Again the answer is NO
Funny A fast-food chain treats it's employees  better than the average Mexican English school treats it's teachers  both Mexican and foreign alike 
Now, how many will call me derisive names and what-not for pointing this out |
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