Job Discussion Forums

[johnslat]

Dear anaxiforminges,
What an excellent reference:

"Marlow expresses, "You should have heard [Kurtz] say, 'My ivory.' Oh, yes, I heard him. 'My Intended, my ivory, my station, my river, my --' everything belonged to him"

Regards,
John

[Sheikh N Bake]

Personally, although I am a TEFLer with the usual linguistics-backed MA, my BA was in journalism and I like to follow the AP stylebook. Some TEFLers with theoretical linguistics backgrounds think as long as enough people mangle a word or grammar point, it's perfectly acceptable if it shows up in a speaking or writing assessment.

Standard American English is often referred to as Network Standard, after the usually polished news anchors. On NBC (or CBS, whatever) today they were reporting the story of some convicted murderer and his fianc�e who wants to visit him. With the graphics along with spoken reporting, they kept referring to fianc�e and fiance separately, since the woman also referred to her fiance. Thus in journalism circles we (I say "we" because I am a regular columnist somewhere out there) like to hold on to certain norms because they help with clarity. So personally I disapprove of interchangeable spellings of the word and I would note my reasons on a paper to be graded.

I noticed American pronunciation of fianc�e stresses the final syllable while the British tend to stress the second syllable.

[trapezius]

[adorabilly]

Trapezius.

I never said it was gramatically correct.

my source would be Mrs. Martinez, my 4th grade teacher. Fiance was both male and female in her classroom. As such, I have used it that way.

I have no recollection of seeing it fiancee anywhere (but again, I could and very probably am wrong about the spelling.)

I answered the question based on my understanding of the word, and my history of japanese fiance's/spouses/wives in my experiences. I have met 1 japanese husband of a native ESL speaking female, whereas I have met DOZENS of japanese wives and fiance(e)s.

[trapezius]

Sorry, Mrs. Martinez doesn't count. If that particular usage can't be found in any dictionary, then it is not correct. As simple as that.

You definitely implied it was correct, as you said that was the American usage. But as I said, there is no official evidence that that is the case.

[veiledsentiments]

[johnkg]

[Sheikh N Bake]

We certainly use "shall" in questions in the US. Shall I bring you some coffee?

My keyboard has an accent key; that's why I use "fianc�e" in the manner still used in the AP stylebook.

Just because half the population misspells "definitely" to read "definately" is absolutely no reason to accept it, any more than I accept interchangeable fiances. Why? Because add in 15 more misspellings along with some popular but nonstandard grammar usages and the student paper or email or whatever you are reading becomes HARD TO READ--and that is unacceptable.

[veiledsentiments]

Ah yes... all the English teachers jump to defend ourselves.

johnkg... We are not talking about British English so never fear... we will happily let you keep it. We have been talking about the facts of AmEng usage, something we overseas TEFL teachers have even less effect on than American teachers in their English classes. Kids use what they hear... not what our boring texts claim is "correct."

I would never say, nor have I heard (except from English teachers) "shall I get you a cup of coffee?" (it has become "should I get you...?" or more commonly "want a cuppa...") That reminds me of when my linguistics professors in the 1980s brought up the discussion - from the linguistics textbook mind you - (note that this is over 20 years ago) that 'shall' was rapidly disappearing. I agreed with him and we discussed the replacement usages. One of the grammar mavens immediately jumped in to say that this was crazy because it hadn't... and her example was "Shall we dance?" Two or three of us laughed and broke into a chorus from "The King and I" which was likely the last time that question was used. Having loved to dance all my life and considering that this was just after the disco phase where one was out dancing a few nights a week, I pointed out that in my whole life, that movie (and others) was the only time I had ever heard any man say it and I had never heard a live male say "Shall we dance?" At the time, many of us were experiencing the joys of teaching from the Betty Azar Grammar series, which stated the same information... that 'shall' was gone and it was excluded from the text and examples. It was only mentioned in a footnote. These books were written over 25 years ago - this is not new information in linguistics. One constant is language change and we can't stop it.

As to accent keys, computers may now have an accent key although I have no idea where it is. I just looked at my new Acer, and it doesn't have one that I see. I was a qualified typing teacher way back when and there was none up until computer keyboards.

We English teachers can huff and puff from the sidelines and decry the death of grammar, but we really have no control. I have this nightmare that by the time today's high school kids reach 40+, the word 'you' will have disappeared and people will be only talking and writing in - u no - textspeak... WTF... LOL... But, one consolation is that I will be dead by then or at best drooling in my wheelchair at the home...

VS

[johnkg]

[johnslat]

Hmm, shall we say "virtually dropped" instead?

[veiledsentiments]

[johnkg]

[veiledsentiments]

Yawn...

VS

[johnkg]