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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| By the way, avahanian, are you really serious about working in Japan, or are you just trolling this board to get more information on your next book? |
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avahanian
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Now you're really showing how little you know about Japan! Read something about the country before making such outlandish statements.
"Make that happen" by reading such things as...
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hi Glenski,
Thanks for the links, I've read them both and still don't see how radically different Japanese companies are supposed to be from corporations, say, in the States or in the UK. Sure there are plenty of differences, but there are plenty of similarities as well (which I won't go into here, unless someone really wants me to).
But some of you make it sound as if working in Japan is as different as working on the moon rather than Earth.
It's very interesting to see Brits and Americans posting messages about how shocking Japanese work hours and conditions are, when in fact they are used to the same 60-hour work weeks in cities such as Los Angeles and London (often for less money than their Japanese counterparts).
It's very easy to be negative and look at the bad side of things, I could do that too. I could talk about the 2 hour commute to work in Los Angeles that many people have to deal with, sitting in traffic along with other aggravated souls who would like nothing more to rip your heart and spine out if you look at them in the wrong way or if you cut in front of them with your car. How about the lack of public transport? Want to take a bus to work? haha, you're out of luck, since taking the bus would entail waiting for nearly an hour for the bus to arrive, switching buses three or four times, and enduring a 3 hour commute to work. no thank you, most people prefer to sit through traffic in their cars and roll down the window to take in a deep breath of that wonderful smog which is said to contribute to the wonderful sunsets.....
Have you had enough already? I'm starting to sound like you lot....ha ha!
Do you get my point now? Anyone can be negative....but how about if we put together all our experiences and come to the conclusion that, nowhere is perfect, and there are joys and sorrows of working in Japan, UK, USA, etc.?
Anyway you cut it, there are going to be advantages and disadvantages in each environment.
My point was, and has been since the very beginning, that working in Japan (or any other place) is an experience, and is not going to be perfect.
But rather than pointing out how horrible it all is, how about just saying that it's an experience, and there are going to be good times and bad times.
I don't know if it's possible, to be positive or optimistic on this message board, but one thing I certainly don't want is another Job Information Journal.
Let's just say, fair enough, Glenski has his own views, and so does everyone else, and we respect their views.
Is this OK, can we get along now?
cheers |
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avahanian
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| By the way, avahanian, are you really serious about working in Japan, or are you just trolling this board to get more information on your next book? |
Hi Glenski,
I wish I could write a book just sitting at home and posting messages on a forum - unfortunately it's not so easy. 
I won't take offence at being called a troll. Rather than being critical of others, and jumping to conclusions, how about just saying that we each have our opinions, and may not necessarily agree with each other, but that's certainly no reason to slag each other off.
To answer your question, I am serious about teaching in Japan, but perhaps you don't think so, because I don't hold the same views as you do about not partying.
Fair enough....but teaching in Japan, just like any other job, has to be enjoyed. Otherwise, quite frankly, I don't see any point in doing it.
cheers |
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kovac
Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:15 pm Post subject: and... |
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all this came from some dude just wanting a bit of advice.....some mediocre mid-brow forum meeting of minds....whats with gaijin in Japan with the "I can out-do-you" complex !?!
Still Tre....Good luck on the job hunt |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Kovac, one of the issues is that the OP has not responded much to what has been said here leaving the discussion to ramble on. He is responsible for the thread after all as he started it.
However, it doesn't really matter. We are all learning stuff here.
Personally, I think Avahanian is out of his tree if he thinks that corporations in Japan are comparable elsewhere. He is looking at things like structure, work hours, holidays etc. But the differences don't lie there. They lie in things like ethics, interaction, logistics, motivation, authority, devolution of responsibility and Japanese concepts like sempai/kohai and honne/tatemae.
The reason though that Avahanian and others with no experience of Japan will argue about structure etc is because of their distant viewpoint. From that POV, it all looks remarkably similar and easy to get on with. But once you step off the plane a certain sense of foreboding comes over you as you interact with management and colleagues. I guarantee, anyone with even minimal experience of a Japanese company (in Japan) will quickly encounter differences that make them think "Are we on the same planet here?" from time to time. As time goes by, the answer to this question becomes more frequently, "Yes, we most definitely are." Unfortunate, but the reality.
This is all very useful stuff for people intent on working in Japan with Japanese companies including the OP who wants to eventually work in the IT industry here. |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| someone else wrote: |
| The other thing to remember is that you're working for a Japanese company. You ain't at home no more. The rules are different here. |
Just so you know that I'm not out of my tree  |
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Tre
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 24
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Yes I am the OP and I did not intend to cause any unrest on this forum. I am not trying to be hostile and I am certainly not trying to tell people who are currently living and working in Japan that I know better.
All I am trying to say is this:
I have been to Japan four times in the past and in total spent over eight months there. I have a fair view from the outside of life in Japan and I know all about washing clothes and buying food because I have stayed in a friend�s apartment during my time there and done these things myself.
We could all argue about the hardships and difficulties that face us when we decide to move to Japan (or any other country for that matter) to live and work for any duration. At the end of the day most things worth doing don�t come easy. They take work and perseverance.
During my time in Japan in the past I have come to love it. I have also made many friends there, but I have never lived there � only visited. I want to work in Japan and really feel like it is my home not just a holiday.
I am leaving for Japan in just over four weeks and I know that it is going to be hard. But I will do it and I will get a job there. I will stay for at least a year and if I like it I will stay longer � we all know a year can fly by. When I eventually return to the UK and I don�t know when that will be I will have a better grasp of the Japanese language.
I don�t plan to be an English teacher for the rest of my life � in five years time I won�t be teaching English. If I can�t get a job in IT in Japan then so be it. To be honest and maybe I did not make this clear earlier, I am more concerned about going to Japan for personal reasons than to specifically do IT in Japan.
I�m not a party animal and I am not going to Japan to �party�. If I get a job in English teaching to start with then I will put all my effort into that and no school will be disappointed.
If I never get a job in IT then that�s no big deal. I will eventually go back to the UK and get a job in IT there. But I am so young I don�t want to think that far ahead at the moment. We can all make plans but as I have already found out in my 22 years of existence some of the best laid plans never come to fruition.
I will never be able to do this in my life again. Once I have a career and a wife/girlfriend in the UK then I am stuck here. I will regret not going to Japan for the rest of my life. I have no commitments at the moment and I want to do it. How can you argue with that? Just because my reasons for wanting to live and work in Japan are slightly different form yours.
I�m not trying to get your backs up but why are you guys so negative. We know its not all fun and games that�s why we are here asking for advice! |
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avahanian
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| shmooj wrote: |
| The reason though that Avahanian and others with no experience of Japan will argue about structure etc is because of their distant viewpoint. |
hi Shmooj,
Although I have no doubt that what you are saying is absolutely true in regards to Japanese corporations, how is any of that such a big deal to people like myself and Tre, who want to work as English teachers over there?
There's no need to make things more complicated than they are, or over-dramatise things (drama is apparently something big in these forums, but if people want drama, they'll watch a soap opera instead).
Of course there are differences....but for the most part, the daily cycle in most cities across the world, for most working people, goes something like this:
You wake up in the morning (or late morning), you eat, you get on the metro, or drive your car, or bicycle, etc, you arrive at work, you do your work, and then you go home, or to a bar, club, etc
Now, how are Japanese people/corporations so different in this regard?
Instead of telling us about a sense of foreboding and making it sound like we will have a difficult time adapting, and giving us all the bad news, how about taking a moment to consider why you have been there all this time, if all you give us is bad news and pessimism?
I was fed most of this stuff before going to Spain, ie "oh you will have a difficult time adapting, learning the language, there's no money in Spain, you'll never find a job, Spanish companies are horrible, Spanish people are lazy, etc."
That stuff gets old really quickly, and quite frankly, we see through all of that |
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avahanian
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Tre wrote: |
I will never be able to do this in my life again. Once I have a career and a wife/girlfriend in the UK then I am stuck here. I will regret not going to Japan for the rest of my life. I have no commitments at the moment and I want to do it. How can you argue with that? Just because my reasons for wanting to live and work in Japan are slightly different form yours.
I�m not trying to get your backs up but why are you guys so negative. We know its not all fun and games that�s why we are here asking for advice! |
Very well said Tre!
Maybe some people here are negative because they don't want IT graduates or teachers who also like to party, to come to Japan and enjoy all the things they enjoy.
After all, an IT graduate should never become an English teacher! Even worse, a teacher who likes to party....DONT YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE A GOOD TIME IN JAPAN??? WORKING IN JAPAN IS ONLY THAT - WORK!
(I hope you have detected my sarcasm here)
In any case, I doubt it's as horrible as they say in Japan....if that were true, why would they be there for so long?
No worries Tre, ignore the negativity mate and just focus on what you want to do.....if you don't do it, then you'll certainly regret it, believe me...at 22 you still have plenty of time to decide what you want to do. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
...you do your work, and then you go home, ...Now, how are Japanese people/corporations so different in this regard?
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Like I wrote earlier. Read those books, Arin. Then you'll know. It's just not as simple as what you have written. Let's drop it. People like shmooj and I know. You don't.
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| Maybe some people here are negative because they don't want IT graduates or teachers who also like to party, to come to Japan and enjoy all the things they enjoy. |
Oh, PLEASE! Stop trying to get someone to side with you just by sucking up! You know damn well nobody has those thoughts. What a poor way of debating.
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| In any case, I doubt it's as horrible as they say in Japan....if that were true, why would they be there for so long? |
Once again, who said it was horrible here? Nobody. Talk about lopsided thinking. There's a big difference between pointing out problem areas one might (or is LIKELY) to face, and saying that life somewhere is horrible. It doesn't take more than 2 synapses to realize that if a place was horrible, few people would stay.
Tre,
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I am the OP and I did not intend to cause any unrest on this forum. I am not trying to be hostile and I am certainly not trying to tell people who are currently living and working in Japan that I know better.
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I for one don't take your attitude as hostile or inciting. Like some others, I was merely trying to point out certain futility in your goals. No offense, but I just hope you can see the points for what they are. Facts, not negativity for negativity's sake. You came here for facts, not rosy-eyed opinion that only looks at the positive, didn't you? Best of luck. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| you do your work, and then you go home, or to a bar |
Just to show some points that prove it's different.
1. In western countries, you don't have the guilt of needing to stay after 5pm just because the boss chooses to do so. In Japan, you do, even if you have nothing to do.
2. Doing your work is performed differently. Let's start with meetings. In the west, groups of people meet and discuss things with deadlines and goals clearly defined in most cases. Not so in Japan (usually). Moreover, in Japan, people do a lot more discussion outside of the meeting to get others on their side of an issue. The meeting itelf is often a boring formality. Not so in the west. In Japanese meetings, whomever speaks has the floor and talks as long as he/she wants, practically without interruption. This is the "bowling" style of Japanese discussions, as opposed to the "ping pong" style of western meetings, where people feel very comfortable jumping in to ask a question or point out a fault/correction. In schools like the one where I work, staff meetings are carried out weekly, and a major part of them is devoted to reading aloud the memos of the week and huge notices that are distributed in the meeting. Why? To ensure that the information has wholly been delivered instead of put in the garbage or forgotten! You'll never see this in the west.
3. It is a well-known fact that Japanese businesses conduct their decision-making processes based on a group mentality. Western decisions are more individual basis.
4. As mentioned by shmooj, there is the sempai/kohai relationship. Look it up if you want details, but let's just say that it is like a very strong mentoring system that often stretches into one's personal life, too. This does not exist in the west.
5. Long hours of overtime in the west are often compensated by extra pay. They are in Japan, too, but not as often, and it is reported to the government differently. Moreover, you don't have people literally working themselves to death in the west.
6. Once someone is on his way out, the west usually just cuts the cord and lets a person go with whatever severance is due. In Japan, you see people being forced out to avoid paying them severance. Office managers are placed in locations of a room that are beneath their ranking, or they are put in blank rooms with no work, no papers, no phone, and with orders not to sleep or read anything personally.
7. Do I have to get into the work situation of a tea-serving office lady? You'll never find that in the west.
8. Three words ought to suffice for this point. Morning office calisthenics.
9. The system of promotions and raises is far different.
10. The language itself in an office is not the same. I'm not referring to business jargon. I mean that Japan has its system of ranking individuals, and that you have to use honorific language to properly address someone.
11. Ever see what is needed on a Japanese job application form? Very little attention is paid to writing one's accomplishments, just one's previous employers, schools, and your marital status and how many people you support. Plus your photo, of course. In many businesses in Japan, you meet 3 times during the interview. Each time you meet with someone higher up (not unusual in the west), but the first meeting may be a huge written exam to weed out large numbers of people. The exam uses material from practically every subject in high school. Moreover, you are often selected for interview by the bigger companies due to your school name, not your grades. They'll teach you what they want you to know about those subject later, anyway. Sempai/kohai.
12. Going out after work is done a lot more in Japan, and not just to have a beer with your co-workers in order to unwind. It is done to cement business deals with clients. When it involves only the co-workers, things can be said at the bar that can't be said in the office and the negative things are pretty much forgotten/forgiven upon return to the office.
Ok, that's an even dozen. All of this just scratches the surface, but it shows that there is a marked difference between the west and Japan. Read those books. |
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cafebleu
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Hi Tre, I am from the UK and I have lived in Japan for a while and am ready to offer some advice. For starters - don`t take discussion and debate on this board so seriously! Although I don`t agree with every poster here, I think the standard of debate on this thread is good and I don`t really see anything unreasonable in the advice offered by posters.
1) About your IT qualifications - they are not a barrier to English teaching work as posters have told you. However, you will HAVE to play up any kind of English qualifications you have.
English teaching jobs will have different demands (Nova, for example, will be a vastly different experience than teaching for a medium or small sized eikaiwa) and the chain schools tend to accept native speakers with a degree in anything. In my first year here I had a job with a small eikaiwa and I landed it because I was the only applicant with teaching qualifications and experience.
That does not mean you have to have such qualifications to work at Nova, Aeon, and Geos. Just keep in mind that a curriculum vitae that emphasises English and communication skills will look better than a curriculum vitae that emphasises your IT training and jobs. Tailor your cv to the communicative aspects and emphasise your ability to work in a team.
2) I can`t see anything inherently negative in warning about the money side of things. I understand you have been here before and you know how much Japan costs to live in. Yet, setting up costs and working here full time are different than coming here and staying with friends or in limited term accommodation.
I am not questioning your relationship with your girlfriend and neither was Glenski - I just agree with him that it is better to think flexibly and be prepared for changing circumstances as Japan is a cruel place to be in if your money is running out. Have a plan B in case there is some difficulty in staying with your girlfriend - landlord objections to another person living in an apartment/house is not unreasonable when the rental contract is made on the assumption that only one person will be living there.
If she is living with her parents - again, think ahead. Just because the Japanese will put on a polite face and seemingly put up with something, does not mean they are enjoying foreign company and will endure it for long.
This is not a usual case but I know a lovely lady who was working on a language exchange programme teaching at a high school in Kanto. She had a homestay arranged but ended up literally on the street having to find a new place with little notice. Homestay family apparently objected to her lack of aisatsu although most likely they were narrow people who should not have been hosting a foreigner in the first place. If your girlfriend is living with her parents they may have objected to your coming and you should not assume you can live easily with them.
3) Payment can take more than several weeks to arrive. In some cases, the new teacher is waiting a month for it. Just be aware of that and make sure you have enough to cover yourself. Presuming on the hospitality of friends or a girlfriend may prove mistaken. That is not being negative - it is just being realistic.
Hope those points will be taken in the correct spirit. |
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cafebleu
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Avahanian - I would like to address a few of your points. I am not criticizing your positive outlook on Japan but I think it is clear you have little idea of what life is like here.
You mentioned the horrible commute to work in LA. Sure, it sounds awful but I cannot understand how that adds up to commuting in Japan being better. Sure, I have not experienced the frustrating freeway journey you have but I have experienced travelling on a packed tube in London to work (tube is the name Brits use for underground/subway) and while it is unpleasant, commuting in Japan`s peak hour can also be unpleasant. Very much so.
I don`t live in Tokyo but I visited a friend there last year and a few days of travelling at peak times made me fervently thank whoever is up there that I don`t have to work in Tokyo. It is plain horrible, and the big cities in Japan will present you with the same soul-destroying, unable to breathe, being elbowed in the face with nary an apology from men, being lifted off your feet at times experiences. I don`t live in the city in Kyushu but I have heard that peak travel is a better experience although it is also unpleasant in Fukuoka.
Don`t make the mistake of thinking that the Japanese have better manners than foreigners. They don`t tend to be aggressive and mouth off when they are unhappy, unlike in my native Blighty, but for example I have never been aggressively and deliberately pushed hard out of the way so a man could get ahead of me, whether walking or on a train/bus.
I havenever seen men in the UK kick a homeless man down the stairs whose crime was sitting on a railway step. Those kind of touches can make life unpleasant here and whereas in my country the rough guys have that aggression, it is the suited company men whom I have seen do it here. That is not to say all of them do it - but I have been shocked by the callousness of usual people at times here.
Sure, western company hours can be very long. I am not denying that. However, in Japan the tradition has been and still is to a large extent one whereby your company is like another family. Sounds nice? It can be but it can also be a huge headache if you like nothing better than to head home after a hard day`s/night`s work. To do so is usually considered anti social - company people in Japan waste a lot of time going out to bars or yakitori (grilled meat) places in the interests of group harmony.
You can refuse but it will mean a subtle ostracisation or a not so subtle ostracisation as your refusal will be seen as a rejection to the all important group. In any number of companies the workers have to wait around until the seniors have left - the over time is often actually just doing this. Neither efficient nor reasonable. This is just one of the ways in which company life in Japan differs from that in western countries.
Re the big chain schools that would not still be around if they had the bad characteristics that we all read about so often - these schools are around because they operate on a fast teacher basis. While there are cases of teachers staying at these schools for a while, the usual teacher is there for one year and is then out the door. Qualifications are not really that important to the powers that be at Nova, Aeon, Geos in order for them to have the high turnover of teachers that they desire.
If a teacher does not stay for more than 1 or 2 years it is cheaper for the chain school. These schools also tend to make money out of the teacher by over-charging each person for a shared apartment. Consider, too, Nova`s method of getting its money from students (I can`t talk about the other chain schools because I don`t know). One of my present students had to pay 3 years` worth of fees at one time. I find that disgusting and exploitative. Probably all students do not do that but all the money from all the students must be paid for the year up-front. All the eikaiwa I have worked at had monthly pay plans. No wonder Nova can keep running with advance money like that.
Lastly housing in London is very expensive. I know personally and that is why it is nice to live in Kyushu where it is cheaper. Yet Tokyo and Osaka can charge huge prices for appalling places, with so called key money (a payment that you are unlikely to get back even if you have kept your place spotless although some foreigners have really pushed it and got some money back) running up to 7 months of rent sometimes in Osaka.
You CANNOT do this in the UK. There are modern laws (I say modern because Japan seems to me very backwards in this and other cases) that successfully prevent the owner/landlord of a rental property demanding such figures, and these same laws ensure tenants` rights that are strong and actually take effect. Even in Kyushu 3 or 4 months` rent in key money is usual. Another point that you need to know is it is not unusual to rent an apartment/house without basic necessities such as hot water in the kitchen or other features.
YOU have to pay for it, which is ludicrous. At one of my rental places the owner refused to replace the tatami (rice floor) matting on the floor although my fees to her supposedly covered that as outlined in the contract. I paid 3 months` rental cost as key money and another 1 months` rental cost to the rental agent but had to pay for new tatami matting in 2 rooms. Such practises flagrantly engaged in belong to a Dickens` book in the UK. Unfortunately they are reality here.
So .......... just giving my reality check. I have lived here for some time so I can honestly say I know more about Japan than you do! |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Avahanian,
I have never come across anyone who has so vehemently defended a country they have never been to. I am curious as to why. Then you turn around and ask us for help. |
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David W
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 457
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't see how very different the Japanese work ethic is from that in the USA |
You Gotta Have Wa
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I thought that was about baseball????   |
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