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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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 Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:08 am Post subject: |
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Well if the two teachers are a couple that would give them a joint income of 700,000-800,000/month, which should be quite sufficient to support a small family and save a little.
Besides if they have any kids (which I've seen no mention of) their hours would be fantastic. And they get a decent amount of time off so they could spend school holidays at home with the kids (if there are any) |
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Ryu Hayabusa
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 182
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:36 am Post subject: |
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To add to what seklarwia said, also keep in mind that their 20-hours at ECC requires no prep work, no research outside of class, etc. I imagine that university jobs/jobs with more prestige and better salary and perks wouldn't end the moment a person isn't at work.
Those 20 ALPs would carry over to the person's next year, too. Which means a possible 40 days off in a year. Working 4 days a week means 10 weeks off in addition to the standard ECC vacation periods.
Glenski, I'm curious: Why is it embarrassing? If you had come to Japan when they did, what would you be doing now? What would your working situation be like? I ask because I think that what those two people at ECC have got going is a really sweet deal. 15 years of pay raises at around 10 000/month would mean 400 000 yen/month salary. Purely conjecture, though. Perhaps you could tell us what your job situation is like or PM me what your working deal is. I understand if you don't want to though, because that's pretty personal information. |
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Inflames
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 486
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| Ryu Hayabusa wrote: |
| Glenski, I'm curious: Why is it embarrassing? If you had come to Japan when they did, what would you be doing now? What would your working situation be like? I ask because I think that what those two people at ECC have got going is a really sweet deal. 15 years of pay raises at around 10 000/month would mean 400 000 yen/month salary. |
I'm (obviously) not Glenski but I feel I too feel that working for a ECC for 15 or 20 years as an instructor is embarrassing. I worked at Nova, so my experiences are probably clouded by that, although there are similarities. I knew several people who had worked there for 7 to 10 years, and I worked with one man who had worked there for 15 years, and all of them were instructors (at Nova, unlike ECC, it was possible for instructors to get promoted and be made seishain). Most of the people spoke minimal Japanese and had done little in the way of obtaining professional qualifications (although some people had them before getting hired) or general professional development. Some people weren't like this but most of the long-term employees were. So basically they just coasted along, getting their pay raises (generally 10,000 was a minimum) and more paid holidays. When Nova went under, a lot of these people went back to the new company because, they would be someone with 10 years of experience, no Japanese and no qualifications elsewhere (so basically they would get 250,000 yen a month). |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: |
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It most certainly isn't the life for everyone. I for one would never want to remain an ALT for that length of time (even if I did have that option). But it most certainly shouldn't be something that others should judge to be embarrassing. Not everyone aspires to become univesity lecturers or to open their own schools. Some don't want the stress that often comes with positions of authority. And many people don't have the opportunity to go back and obtain further qualifications, especially if they do have a family or other commitments.
Go to any big chain UK supermarket or convience store and you will find people that have been working the cash tills and stacking the shelves there since they left school, which may be decades. They go to work, do their job, then go home. They don't have to worry about prep/paper work out of their work hours; they can spend their time doing things that they truely want to do.
If a person is content in their job, who are we to say that they shouldn't be proud of what they do. |
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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: |
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I think Mother Theresa didn't get paid for her work or how little of it, even no pensions, and had few possessions, and I wouldn't see that embarrassing.
I think what is embarassing is to look down at other people. Full stop.
(Do not think I am trying to be all angelic here, I too have learnt my lesson and still trying) |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| Well if the two teachers are a couple that would give them a joint income of 700,000-800,000/month, which should be quite sufficient to support a small family and save a little. |
That's irrelevant to the point here, which is that one person making a mere 300,000 after working 20-30 years is making far too little. Don't juggle numbers just by multiplying by 2. It's the individual salary that is in question.
| seklarwia wrote: |
| It most certainly isn't the life for everyone. I for one would never want to remain an ALT for that length of time |
I agree on both counts here. I used to work with a guy in his 40s who (like me at the time) was in eikaiwa, him for almost a decade. He would put in their 3 years, then jaunt off with his wife (non-teacher) to spend their earnings for a year or so in SE Asia, then return to work at the same eikaiwa. That ran dry, but they still live a very simple life, and one that I couldn't imagine living like they do/did (for many reasons that I need not go into here).
As for my use of the word "embarrassing", perhaps that's a personal thing. I got that much money after only 4 years here. No, it wasn't from eikaiwa. I did the 4 years in eikaiwa then moved up to that wage (upper end of the scale in question).
Now, I don't want people to scream that I'm comparing apples and oranges (like the Mother Theresa remarks above are). I also am not comfortable talking about people (the couple in question) when they are not around to explain or defend themselves as needed. So, let's just stick to the hypothetical concept of anyone who is in eikaiwa for 25 years or longer and still making 300K. That's what has been cited.
C'mon. Getting a mere 50,000 yen/month raise over that period of time is not embarrassing? What do you call it?
I will not leap for any jugular veins here and bad-mouth people who stay in eikaiwa a long time; everyone has their own preferences in life. But, when the starting wage even 20 years ago was 250K, and has remained such until only a couple of years ago (when it began showing signs of going down),
| Quote: |
| how can anyone justify such a small increase in pay? |
Ok, so some people don't want/need to live on much. That's about all I can grant people. It's a very different lifestyle than most, though.
| Ryu Hayabusa wrote: |
| Glenski, I'm curious: Why is it embarrassing? If you had come to Japan when they did, what would you be doing now? What would your working situation be like? I ask because I think that what those two people at ECC have got going is a really sweet deal. 15 years of pay raises at around 10 000/month would mean 400 000 yen/month salary. Purely conjecture, though. Perhaps you could tell us what your job situation is like or PM me what your working deal is. I understand if you don't want to though, because that's pretty personal information. |
Obviously, I can't say with any certainty what I or anyone "would have" been doing by now. ESID. To have started here in the 80s, however, would mean being able to put away a nice nest egg with private lessons, as they were able to rake in more than they do now. (Plus, you have to remember the yen/dollar exchange rate back then was not the 100-120 it is now; rather it was about 250.) Regardless, if I had the same attitudes then as I did when I got into the game now, I'd still be doing what I'm doing -- teaching at a university and doing side work (in my case proofreading and editing). If that didn't work out, I'd probably have been doing something directly related to business English (because I didn't start out in EFL; rather, I came in from a different career and would want to use that background). To be honest, if I came into the game in the 80s at the same age I did when I really started teaching EFL, I'd be retired by now, or nearly so.
| Ryu Hayabusa wrote: |
| To add to what seklarwia said, also keep in mind that their 20-hours at ECC requires no prep work, no research outside of class, etc. I imagine that university jobs/jobs with more prestige and better salary and perks wouldn't end the moment a person isn't at work. |
While it's true that the hours are fewer for most FTers, and the vacation is longer, I think the notion of uni jobs being so prestigious is becoming more and more a myth these days.
1) Most uni jobs for foreigners have no tenure.
2) Most uni jobs these days seem to be PT not FT. B'bye office, research grant (for most), private phone.
3) Depending on the FT position, teaching hours may be 5-6 x 90 minutes per week (7.5-9 hours), but there may also be committee work, staff meetings, and unpaid proofreading that sucks away one's time. So, there's a balance there.
4) Lots of uni teachers just show up and put in their time, much like an eikaiwa teacher. Their attitude it, "Hey, I'm only PT, so why not? The kids don't expect more anyway!"
5) Having paid vacation of months at a time doesn't mean one is free to roam the streets or airways. That vacation is merely down time from courses, not real paid vacation to some! Don't know about others, but many of us work during that time.
Nobody is forcing anyone to better themselves, be it with training classes like those from ETJ or from distance learning degrees or attending/making presentations and writing papers. One can coast through life in uni or eikaiwa if one chooses. I choose not to coast. Our hypothetical couple may or may not. However, trying not to sound arrogant here, one might easily envisage a higher salary if one would apply oneself to that extra effort, and it doesn't take that much for some of those improvements, certainly in the span of a quarter century.
I put myself through college and ended up with darned little student loans to pay off. I have worked drudgery and mindless jobs in my life and helped pay for daily living for my siblings and mother while I was in HS. Nothing has EVER been handed to me on a silver platter. Maybe I just have more self-drive to do more, which leads to making more. Perhaps that's why I used that "e" word. I hope this clears up a few points. |
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cornishmuppet
Joined: 27 Mar 2004
Posts: 642
Location: Nagano, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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cornishmuppet wrote:
It's probably more than most Japanese public school teachers, not counting bonuses.
"Probably"? Don't you know? Besides, those bonuses add up to quite a heap!
Trust me. I've seen the pay scales here. 300-400K for 25-30 years? Nope. |
Of course I don't. I don't subscribe to that irritating Japanese trait of asking people straight out what they earn. If you have any official information, please feel free to share it.
What I have heard is that a principal earns around 70man, which would mean earning 40man as a normal, run of the mill junior/high school teacher not too bad. A gloating, drunken 58 year old once told me his half-yearly bonus was 100man, though, which is admittedly pretty sweet.
Salary notwithstanding, while I see longevity in any kind of job as no problem back home, being an eikaiwa teacher or an ALT in Japan for so long would make me feel uncomfortable. Regardless of all the old timers, I've always seen this as a young person's job and in middle-age wouldn't want to be submitted to the 'not a real teacher' view that the Japanese so often have in regards to ALTs or eikaiwa teachers. I know an ALT in his late 50s and don't know how he stands it. I feel uncomfortable enough sometimes and I'm only 30.
On the other hand, I would feel a lot better about owning a school, working in a uni or international school. Its the top of the teaching food chain, so to speak. The opinion (and I think its true) that anyone can be an ALT or eikaiwa teacher immediately groups you in with the cannon fodder, regardless of your experience or qualifications.
Regarding salary again, for a family of two working parents to be earning a combined 50 - 60 man a month is nothing to turn our noses up at. That's more than my parents ever made and we did all right. |
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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| I put myself through college and ended up with darned little student loans to pay off. I have worked drudgery and mindless jobs in my life and helped pay for daily living for my siblings and mother while I was in HS. Nothing has EVER been handed to me on a silver platter. Maybe I just have more self-drive to do more, which leads to making more. Perhaps that's why I used that "e" word. I hope this clears up a few points. |
Good for you. You have done well. But we cannot always expect others to live to the same expectations as oneself, that's all. Nothing is over ... until it is over.
| cornishmuppet wrote: |
| On the other hand, I would feel a lot better about owning a school |
That's true. As long as you work for someone, you will always be simply a servant, regardless of what you earn. Even if you get to be a professor, you are simply a higher earning servant. You can do this because your mother tongue was English, had it been otherwise you wouldn't be here in the first place.
Owning a school or some other business is a much greater test of achievement, imo, you offer more than just English. Business can outlasts the teachers within. Universities can outlast the teachers within. Everyone remembers the business or the school or the University. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| cornishmuppet wrote: |
| On the other hand, I would feel a lot better about owning a school, working in a uni or international school. Its the top of the teaching food chain, so to speak. |
There are those who would disagree with you, depending on circumstances. Don't forget business English schools, too.
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| The opinion (and I think its true) that anyone can be an ALT or eikaiwa teacher immediately groups you in with the cannon fodder, regardless of your experience or qualifications. |
Yes, and I tried not to be so blunt about it, considering how my other remarks were taken. Still, one has to start somewhere.
| Quote: |
| Regarding salary again, for a family of two working parents to be earning a combined 50 - 60 man a month is nothing to turn our noses up at. That's more than my parents ever made and we did all right. |
But, my point was that you can't consider this combined figure.
| starteacher wrote: |
| You have done well. But we cannot always expect others to live to the same expectations as oneself, that's all. |
I believe I made that caveat. |
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cornishmuppet
Joined: 27 Mar 2004
Posts: 642
Location: Nagano, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| cornishmuppet wrote: |
| On the other hand, I would feel a lot better about owning a school, working in a uni or international school. Its the top of the teaching food chain, so to speak. |
There are those who would disagree with you, depending on circumstances. Don't forget business English schools, too. |
Indeed. I think the distinction I was looking for is any job where you are employed as a direct result of your qualifications or experience, as opposed to having a sheet of paper that makes you eligible for a visa. |
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