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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| The 'that person hasn't been there ever before so he doesn't know squat' argument has gotten pretty stale |
If so, you're doing an excellent job of single-handedly reviving it. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, perhaps we could coin another "catch-phrase":
"Haven't been there; haven't done that."
I doubt, though, that it would become too popular as an assertion that the speaker had a firm basis for his/her statements.
Regards,
John |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| rigel wrote: |
| Cleopatra wrote: |
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Considering that 'rigel' has never set foot in KSA, it's not an example of anything other than his feverish imagination. |
This guy is starting to sound like a robot on auto-play. It's getting old, and, to be honest, rather annoying. |
The reality is that Cleo has been teaching in Saudi for a number of years at a number of different employers. Thus she has earned her opinion. Though she does tend to be a bit hard on newbies. 
Rigel, while you have spent the last few months in serious research on working in Saudi, you do need to be careful about giving advice to others based only on what you have read or understood on the board or in your PMs. Sometimes your interpretations are off... and other newbies may not know that you have never worked in the Middle East or Saudi. So, don't be upset if your misinformation gets your fingers slapped.  (remember when teachers could do that? ahh... the good old days...)
VS |
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Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Have you ever stood on the sun? No? You can tell me something about it, though, I'm sure. I don't know, though. Perhaps you don't know anything about the sun.
Some of us do. And, believe it or not, we've never been there. |
Oh, Rigel. I, too, once knew everything there was to know about going to Saudi Arabia to teach before I had ever been there. I had extensive experience with teaching Arabs and Muslims. I had lived in other parts of the region. I had done all the research and read every post I could find.
And then I got to KSA, and realized that there is no way anyone can really know the Saudi experience without having been there. Nothing that you read or have experienced before really prepares you for the reality. And I am not just being dramatic. In fact, that's why some people actually kind of like it. It's intense, it's authentic, and it is very hard to describe to another person who hasn't been there.
| Quote: |
| The 'that person hasn't been there ever before so he doesn't know squat' argument has gotten pretty stale. Sometimes, some people can be careful observers and learn. It's easy to learn all there is to know at this site. There are only five or so white people who've ever been to Saudi Arabia to teach. And they all post here regularly. |
What is this "white people" stuff? Do you want to explain why the color of a teacher's skin affects the quality of their posts? |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah- coming home afterwards I felt like I started to understand what the Viet Nam vets must have felt- there is no way to really explain it so that others can understand. |
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rigel
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I need to go to this place, even if I don't get a job there. It sounds too interesting to never go there. |
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rigel
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Mia Xanthi wrote: |
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What is this "white people" stuff? Do you want to explain why the color of a teacher's skin affects the quality of their posts? |
What I'm getting at is the 500,000 other whites who've gotten experience teaching in the KSA who are absent from this board. Sure, they don't 'owe' us their anecdotes and war stories, but there must be a few more out there outside the usual crowd who can offer opinions. |
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rigel
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Hmm, perhaps we could coin another "catch-phrase":
"Haven't been there; haven't done that."
I doubt, though, that it would become too popular as an assertion that the speaker had a firm basis for his/her statements.
Regards,
John |
I like it. Or how about "The original haven't been there, haven't done that guy"? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Dear rigel,
" . . . but there must be a few more out there outside the usual crowd who can offer opinions."
Perhaps, like many others who undergo traumatic experiences, they're reluctant to talk abut them.
Or, perhaps, hard though it may be to believe, they've never even heard about Dave's.
Or perhaps, like those who experience "hazing," they want everybody else to have to go through what they did, without any idea of what it will involve.
But such speculation is useless since, as far as I can see, there doesn't appear to be any way to entice those "outside the usual crowd" to join us here and offer their opinions.
And, even if they did, if they were being honest, I'd say they'd tend to agree with what Mia wrote:
"And then I got to KSA, and realized that there is no way anyone can really know the Saudi experience without having been there. Nothing that you read or have experienced before really prepares you for the reality."
Most of us, I think, have had similar situations. For me, no amount of reading, movies, etc. prepared me at all for the intensity of Parris Island (the east coast United States Marine Corps boot camp.) And all the training, all instruction I received before going to Vietnam did little to get me ready for the reality there.
I must say, though, that I like your attitude:
"I need to go to this place, even if I don't get a job there. It sounds too interesting to never go there."
Regards,
John |
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rigel
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:05 am Post subject: |
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Actually....we do know a little bit about the place from those guys. The fact they're not there anymore, and don't go back even though the economy has taken a dump, tells a lot.
"Oh shucks. I just lost my job in the USA. I USED to teach in <Saudi Arabia>, a place that pays well. Man, I could be rolling in the dough once again. I could go back and get another job there....
Nah. I'd rather live under a bridge first".
You could also insert Korea as the potential destination. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| The fact they're not there anymore, and don't go back even though the economy has taken a dump, tells a lot. |
No, it doesn't say anything. Perhaps they saved enough to have financial security. And few of them will be working in fields that have been hit by the present economic crisis: teaching, EFL, medicine, engineering, petroleum, and petrochemicals have suffered little from the crisis. |
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eclectic
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 1122
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| there is no requirement to post ion any forum. Ions are only posted in deep space. |
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rigel
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
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| The fact they're not there anymore, and don't go back even though the economy has taken a dump, tells a lot. |
No, it doesn't say anything. Perhaps they saved enough to have financial security. And few of them will be working in fields that have been hit by the present economic crisis: teaching, EFL, medicine, engineering, petroleum, and petrochemicals have suffered little from the crisis. |
The real teachers could easily find work in their home countries, because those jobs haven't been affected as much. BUT....Most of these jobs are hard to get when they're available, despite the fact they pay low salaries (at least according to popular press) and don't offer the bennies a job in a place like Korea could offer.
"I have an education degree. I also get paid 25,000 a year to teach in the USA. I save very little each year, as I have to cover things like rent. I could go to Korea and teach where I could make 35,000 a year to teach with everything paid for. I could be saving a lot more. Nah. I'll stay here. Those jobs overseas have a bad reputation. I'll stay here and continue to complain about the fact I save very little." |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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You're talking rubbish, rigel, look up the salaries for teachers with state certification in the US (varies greatly from state to state but the average is way higher than $25,000 p.a.).
And you'd be pushed to get a salary of $35,000 a year in Korea. |
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rigel
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
You're talking rubbish, rigel, look up the salaries for teachers with state certification in the US (varies greatly from state to state but the average is way higher than $25,000 p.a.).
And you'd be pushed to get a salary of $35,000 a year in Korea. |
Alright. Let's say I'm talking about teaching in Mississippi, then. Just those guys alone could say "you know...I hate teaching here. I think I'll go overseas and teach. I'll save way more in a place like the KSA or Korea." All those help-wanted ads for the brat-teaching gigs would soon disappear. I'd then no longer get ads from recruiters begging me to go teach at some kindergarten or elementary school. The Mississippi boys would be filling those jobs.
One can't commony make 35K in Korea? Right now, sure. One may be 'pushed' to make 35K a year in Korea. But one could easily make 35,000 in Korea back when I was working there in 2007-2008. 2.8 million a month + bonuses + pension. I say "could" because this was before the won melted down. I saved right at 50,000 over two years. I know it can be done if the won is looking cake compared to the dollar. Funny, though. When I was raking it in, I never ran into anyone from Mississippi. I wonder how much those guys saved in that two-year span? They could have saved a bundle if they would have been teaching in Korea instead at those always-open brat-teaching gigs. But they weren't. They elected to stay in Mississippi. |
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