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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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 Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| ... the arguments here have been that you can't do this anymore in Taipei. My advice is go south. I know in Taichung you can get away with pretty much anything. |
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| Actually it applies evenly throughout the island. |
You might want to live in another place than Taipei. You may see some things that shock you. Generally, the rules are less strictly enforced outside of the "provisional capital". Especially in smaller towns, where they are usually not enforced at all. You get to know what the police will let you get away with and what they won't. Taipei is a police state. It is very different from any other city or county in Taiwan. The difference is like night and day. Taipei reminded me more of South Korea, where the police are very strict with foreigners. The rest of Taiwan is not like that. |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:04 am Post subject: |
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[quote="jason_seeburn"]
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| ... the arguments here have been that you can't do this anymore in Taipei. My advice is go south. I know in Taichung you can get away with pretty much anything. |
| Quote: |
| Actually it applies evenly throughout the island. |
You might want to live in another place than Taipei. You may see some things that shock you. Generally, the rules are less strictly enforced outside of the "provisional capital". Especially in smaller towns, where they are usually not enforced at all. quote]
That is pretty much common knowledge, but wan't what I was talking about.
I was specifically talking about the recent activity on the island, which as everyone living here and working in the industry knows, was islandwide! In fact more reports were made of activities in the Taichung and Southern Areas than in Taipei. The reports made from Taipei were of 'friendly visits' by authorities, rather than 'raids'.
Either way, the facts remain the same. There was enforcement of these rules going on islandwide. By all accounts it seems to be settling down again now- as predicted. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:14 am Post subject: |
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I was specifically talking about the recent activity on the island, which as everyone living here and working in the industry knows, was islandwide! In fact more reports were made of activities in the Taichung and Southern Areas than in Taipei. The reports made from Taipei were of 'friendly visits' by authorities, rather than 'raids'.
Either way, the facts remain the same. There was enforcement of these rules going on islandwide. By all accounts it seems to be settling down again now- as predicted. |
yeah, they always do that though. When I was there schools got raided and people got taken away by the police. But if you had an ARC they generally left you alone. Unless you were working at a school that wasn't your issuing school, then you could get heat for that. But the thing was that everyone knew, a long time before it happened, what school was getting raided and why. It was talked about in the bars along the canal way before it happened. So you had to be an idiot to get caught if you knew your school was being raided and you weren't legal. The only people who got burned were those who didn't know that their school was not their ARC issuing school - true morons, deserving completely what they got. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I believe the question was "is it illegal to teach kindergarten in Taiwan?" The answer is yes. It is a totally illegal activity. That doesn't deter those determined to run English kindies and those similarly determined to work in them. This issue is a little cloudy because, for a short time last year, it was actually legal to work in kindies. But let's all be clear, at this moment it is illegal. An arc will not help matters (unless you got it before the law changed). If you get an arc through a kindie, it will actually be from a cram school. If you are caught teaching a kindie class, you will get deported. What are the odds of this happening? I'm not sure. Some people tell me that officials call ahead thus allowing the foreigner time to flee. One school I went to proudly told me of how their school was in a walled compound with one guarded entrance. In the event of a "visit" the guard would press a button triggering a dismissal bell. The foreigner would stop teaching and leave the room. Because the school was also a cram school, it wouldn't matter if he were found on site. Sound like a good life for you? Then work in a kindie. BTW Don't listen to Jason. The laws changed since he left after his very short stay here, and he probably wasn't aware of the laws even when he did live here. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| In the event of a "visit" the guard would press a button triggering a dismissal bell. The foreigner would stop teaching and leave the room. Because the school was also a cram school, it wouldn't matter if he were found on site. Sound like a good life for you? Then work in a kindie. BTW Don't listen to Jason. The laws changed since he left after his very short stay here, and he probably wasn't aware of the laws even when he did live here. |
Nope, the laws were actually the same when I was there. I've never known a Taiwan where a kindergarten could get you an ARC. You make Taiwan sound like South Korea though with your stories above. It really isn't like that (except maybe in Taipei). |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Nope, the laws were actually the same when I was there. I've never known a Taiwan where a kindergarten could get you an ARC. |
Just goes to show how out of touch you are with the situation here. As Taoyuan Steve says, it was briefly legal for foreigners to work in kindergartens here. ARC's were available for kindergarten work at that time. This was revoked in October 2003 (if my memory serves me correctly), and an initial amnesty was given allowing teachers with contracts to finish off their contracts. No new teachers could be legally signed up, hence the move towards employing teachers through the buxiban channels. |
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Okami
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 121
Location: Sunny Sanxia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| As Taoyuan Steve says, it was briefly legal for foreigners to work in kindergartens here. |
This is true
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| ARC's were available for kindergarten work at that time. |
This isn't quite so accurate. Here's how legal kindy teaching worked for awhile anyway. Your buxiban or anqingban would give you an ARC. You could then work for a kindergarten legally if you fulfilled ALL of the following 3 things.
1. Find a kindergarten that would legally hire you
2. Have your boss at the anqingban or buxiban approve it
3. Get all the amendments done to your ARC by the proper authorities
In all honesty it was a real hassle and I sincerely doubt anybody really did it, though I'm sure there were a few sticklers who insisted on it.
It is illegal to teach at a kindergarten. Language schools that masquerade as kindergartens are getting busted for false advertisement, though enforcement seems spotty at best. A kindy in Yungho at the corner of Deho Rd and Zhongzheng Rd had it's signs covered by a white tarp not too long ago and they still might be there.
CYA
Okami |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Just goes to show how out of touch you are with the situation here. As Taoyuan Steve says, it was briefly legal for foreigners to work in kindergartens here. ARC's were available for kindergarten work at that time. This was revoked in October 2003 (if my memory serves me correctly), and an initial amnesty was given allowing teachers with contracts to finish off their contracts. No new teachers could be legally signed up, hence the move towards employing teachers through the buxiban channels. |
so it was illegal when I was there, then briefly legal, and now it is illegal again. Sounds like things haven't changed. I had schools trying to get me to work at kindys for them when I was there too. They want to farm you out. I just told them no. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Just goes to show how out of touch you are with the situation here. As Taoyuan Steve says, it was briefly legal for foreigners to work in kindergartens here. ARC's were available for kindergarten work at that time. This was revoked in October 2003 (if my memory serves me correctly), and an initial amnesty was given allowing teachers with contracts to finish off their contracts. No new teachers could be legally signed up, hence the move towards employing teachers through the buxiban channels. |
so it was illegal when I was there, then briefly legal, and now it is illegal again. Sounds like things haven't changed. I had schools trying to get me to work at kindys for them when I was there too. They want to farm you out. I just told them no. |
Wait a minute? It seems to me that Seeburn is actually conceding that he didn't know something. Holy cow.
Actually, though, it was technically legal to work in kindies (provided you followed procedure) during your (short) time here, Jason. The law was changed after you left.
Okami's description of the procedure for legal subcontracting sounds accurate. I remember seeing something describing the procedure for legally working at a kindy posted in the teacher's room at work. I also remember it being so cumbersome as to hardly make it worth your while. Also, I'm sure, the original arc sponsor would have been pocketing cash in the deal. I remember thinking at the time of seeing the procedure: Even if I was interested in kindie work (and I'm not), I wouldn't go through that hassle that would only put more cash in my already too wealthy school owners' pockets.
Out here we have huge school-like compounds that have both kindies and cram schools in them. Some of them look like hot-pink castles. I think the legal kindie policy would have benefited them as their foreigners could work in the kindie classes legally (Perhaps these kindie castles were what Brian was referring to when he mentioned getting arcs through kindies). I guess now these places have to be careful (I also wonder if the foreigners in them are aware of their true status).
A question for discussion: Someone working at Hess told me Hess schools are entitled to continue operating kindie classes as they are a "language school." Anyone know if this is true? Or is the person who told me this just another foreigner being duped by his employer? |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, though, it was technically legal to work in kindies (provided you followed procedure) during your (short) time here, Jason. The law was changed after you left.
Okami's description of the procedure for legal subcontracting sounds accurate. I remember seeing something describing the procedure for legally working at a kindy posted in the teacher's room at work. I also remember it being so cumbersome as to hardly make it worth your while. Also, I'm sure, the original arc sponsor would have been pocketing cash in the deal. I remember thinking at the time of seeing the procedure: Even if I was interested in kindie work (and I'm not), I wouldn't go through that hassle that would only put more cash in my already too wealthy school owners' pockets. |
It appears that you once again have no idea what you are talking about (though I do see glimmers of understanding here and there). I have recently been talking to a lady from a school in Taipei, who assures me up and down (she is native Chinese, lived on Taiwan all her life) that it is possible to subcontract a teacher to a kindy in Taiwan, but it is complicated. So it appears that the law has not changed at all, and it is the exact same as when I was there (ie: kindys can't issue ARCs, but can rent teachers). I would take the word of a Chinese person over your word any day, and I assume if any teachers are being deported for doing this, that they have done something else wrong. |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Okami wrote: |
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| ARC's were available for kindergarten work at that time. |
This isn't quite so accurate. |
Thanks Okami. I stand corrected, and agree that your description is factual.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| I would take the word of a Chinese person over your word any day, and I assume if any teachers are being deported for doing this, that they have done something else wrong. |
This is most certainly a bad error of judgement, and perhaps explains why you are so inaccurate in so many of your posts.
Sure, a Chinese person within the industry SHOULD really know more than us foreigners do, but this just isn't the case. Of course some of them do, but to believe that just because they are Chinese means that they know what they are talking about is just asking for trouble.
Personally, I would listen to a few people (regardless of nationality), read some legislation, and then make a decision from there. I don't like third party info as it is so unreliable. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| brian wrote: |
| Okami wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ARC's were available for kindergarten work at that time. |
This isn't quite so accurate. |
Thanks Okami. I stand corrected, and agree that your description is factual.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| I would take the word of a Chinese person over your word any day, and I assume if any teachers are being deported for doing this, that they have done something else wrong. |
This is most certainly a bad error of judgement, and perhaps explains why you are so inaccurate in so many of your posts.
Sure, a Chinese person within the industry SHOULD really know more than us foreigners do, but this just isn't the case. Of course some of them do, but to believe that just because they are Chinese means that they know what they are talking about is just asking for trouble.
Personally, I would listen to a few people (regardless of nationality), read some legislation, and then make a decision from there. I don't like third party info as it is so unreliable. |
Foreigners in Taiwan are notorious for being ill informed blowhards with bad tempers. The Chinese on the other hand, seem to know what is going on. I like to give people here a balanced view of the situation, since I am not on the island and can give the perspective of someone who was there, has left, and can look back intelligently on the experience.
Re: read some legislation: I never do trust the translations of the legislation there. And there are also a lot of regulations and exceptions to any ministerial statement of policy on Taiwan (which statement will be in Chinese, and then either translated, or wholly changed, or sometimes just invented, into English). You need to know how the minister is enforcing the legislation and how his/her underlying regulatory bodies are dealing with the policy statement. For that, you need the help of the Chinese. Which is why I am so excited whenever I get the chance to talk to a chinese person on Taiwan who has the perspective of knowing the chinese side of things. |
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Okami
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 121
Location: Sunny Sanxia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Seeburn,
I would say that you know very little about Taiwan and Chinese culture. If so, you would know that foreigners, especially ones that have been here longer usually know the laws better than their hosts because they are integral to our staying here.
If you do know so much, here's a challenge that I'm sure you'll refuse, because it would be too much trouble for someone of your calibre.
Explain qing2li3fa3, the basis of how rules of society are viewed here.
CYA
Okami |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Okami wrote: |
Mr. Seeburn,
I would say that you know very little about Taiwan and Chinese culture. If so, you would know that foreigners, especially ones that have been here longer usually know the laws better than their hosts because they are integral to our staying here.
If you do know so much, here's a challenge that I'm sure you'll refuse, because it would be too much trouble for someone of your calibre.
Explain qing2li3fa3, the basis of how rules of society are viewed here.
CYA
Okami |
Don't play your silly little challenge games with me. I won't take the bait. And the statement that the foreigners on the island know more about the laws than the chinese do is just laughable. As you probably well know (or should know) the chinese on Taiwan are very attuned to their government and its policies. Even a chinese teaching assistant in a language school knows about the laws on the island. They all know. It is like Europe that way. The people there are very in touch with what is going on. They don't blame it all on UFOs and communists, like they do in the USA. |
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brian
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 299
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| Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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As expected Jason shied away from this one. I think that he is still reeling from the extremely embrassing incident about Chinese usage as you enter 7-11's that many of us still recall him feebly attempting to argue not long ago.
I think that Okami put it quite well. The fact that foreigners know more about the laws and regulations regarding schools and teaching in Taiwan stands to reason. The fact is that we often need to know this stuff, whereas the average Chinese person doesn't. It pays to know where you stand in your dealings with schools and I think that most foreigners acknowledge this. There are a few foreigners who run around making ludcirous claims and claims based upon nothing but their own personal beliefs (ahem, the return airline tickets debacle Jason!).
Just because one is Chinese doesn't mean that they have a good legal knowledge here in Taiwan. I will be the first to admit that I know very little about the visa application requirements for people wanting to work in the country that I hail from, as I have never had any experience with this. Ask me questions about the same things here in Taiwan and I could pretty well give you a definitive answer as I have been through the process and read up a lot about it.
Of course, ask the average foreigner about regulations pertaining to matters outside of the school and you will probably get nothing more than guesstimates. This could however be very true of many locals as well. |
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