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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think you are 100% correct on this. Saudi visas are no more and no less than ticket numbers. Employers can change the destination of visa- in case not collected- to other embassies regardless. It is a hassle and some extra paper work for them, but it's ligtimate and doable. |
You're talking about two different things. You seem to be referring to the siutaiton whereby an employer is given permission by the ministry to obtain a visa for, say, a British citizen, but that British citizen may decide he doesn't want to process his visa in London, but in, say, Paris. You're right in saying that it's usually possible to have the name of the embassy changed on the visa application. That is not the same thing as saying that an employer who has a block visa for a British citizen can easily change it to, say, a block visa for an Uzbekistani. He may be able to do so, but ther's a good chance he will not. |
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Mr TEFL
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Dear TESOLers (Teachers of Englishes for Speakers of Other Languages)
Interesting debate, but how does this relate to the NEST/NNEST issue?
As usual, it seems like this thread is sadly deteriorating into another slanging match of little benefit. |
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Sheikh N Bake
Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 1307
Location: Dis ting of ours
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I disagree. You asked about discrimination in general terms against non-native speakers of English obtaining and retaining employment in the Kingdom. Issuance of visas certainly pertains. |
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7atetan
Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 93
Location: Not in the Mediterranean Sea
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
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| Unlike some Far Eastern countries, Saudi Arabia does not mandate that teachers of English must be nationals of predefined countries. |
You clearly have no idea how the visa system works in Saudi.
A company is given a block visa to hire so many nationals from a definite country for a specified job. So if it has six visas for US teachers it can't hire UK teachers or US computer programmers. If it wants to hire an English teacher from Uzbekistan it may apply for a visa for an Uzbekistani, but that may well be refused. |
*sigh*
O.K., and exactly how does that contradict what I said?
Fact is that SILC had hired people of "non-native-English-speaking" nationalities (add to my original list: Ukranian, Polish and Yemeni), so the claim that they cannot procure visas for nationals of NNES countries is spurious.
Saudi Arabia does NOT operate on, say, the Korean principle whereby only passport-holders of X, Y or Z are eligible for visas to teach A.
But, hey, THANKS for providing me with that "idea" I didn't have.  |
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lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Sheikh N Bake wrote: |
| I disagree. You asked about discrimination in general terms against non-native speakers of English obtaining and retaining employment in the Kingdom. Issuance of visas certainly pertains. |
I agree the issuance of visas pertains...but I interpreted the call for "debate" as a solicitation of scenarios that might serve as a basis for petition. |
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Mr TEFL
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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All I asked was
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| Interesting debate, but how does this relate to the NEST/NNEST issue? |
I asked how. You explained how. Thank you all. |
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dutchman
Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| freesoul wrote: |
Faced with such ads, I think it is always not a bad idea to send your CV even if you are not a so-called 'native'. This is what I used to do during my hectic job-hunting times a while ago. It worked most of the times, got interviews and even offers.
Yes, it did help that I am UK educated with softened accent, soI guess that places me in that gray area lablled by employers 'near native' 
Cheers
Still free soul |
Just wondering, did you write native-speaker on your CV, or near-native?
If you have native competence, and can pass for a native-speaker, do you think you are justified to write native-speaker on your CV?
Do you think there is any benefit in applying to jobs which ask for native-speakers even though I am a non-native? |
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freesoul
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 240
Location: Waiting for my next destination
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Dutchman,
I would suggest you don�t write anything concerning your �(non)nativeness�. Your nationality will be indicative enough for potential employers. However, if you really want to specify this part, you could mention it in your cover letter, not your CV.
Whatever you decide to do, don�t start by declaring you are not �native�-negative starter. You could write in your cover letter in an elusive broad sense that ��your competence and fluency are �native��- so you won�t be lying to anyone coz your competence and fluency are such.
Good luck |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| If you have native competence, and can pass for a native-speaker, do you think you are justified to write native-speaker on your CV? |
No. Because it would, quite simply, be a lie.
Don't get me wrong: most of the Dutch people I've met speak better English than many of the native-speaking 'teachers' you encounter in staffrooms all over KSA. But you simply can't say you're a native speaker when you're not. There's no need to specify this on your CV anyway - I've never done so as I assume my nationality will provide the relevant information.
As for your second question, there's never any harm in applying. It's not like emailing a CV is an onerous task in any case, so why not? |
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dutchman
Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your suggestions...
But it is a tad more complicated than that...
Although I grew up in the Netherlands, and have a Dutch passport, my parents were actually Turkish immigrants, and as such my name does not sound Dutch at all...I am called Mustafa, which is actually an Arabic name...I am aware that Saudi employers prefer not to recruit Asian people...Well, at least I am not Pakistani or Indian...In another topic, once it was said that Malaysians and Turks are higher on the ladder than Pakistanis and Indians...
So there comes the question now...It will be obvious to a Saudi employer that I am not actually of Dutch origin. (I am actually not fluent in Dutch either, as I was educated completely in English...but that's a different story)
So what's your advice now? Shall I mention my background, or shall I insist that I am truly Dutch, but converted to Islam and changed my name or something  |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| So what's your advice now? Shall I mention my background, or shall I insist that I am truly Dutch, but converted to Islam and changed my name or something |
Sorry, but since when are you expected to provide details of your ethnicity and religion on a CV? I have never done so, nor do I know anybody who has.
Just send off a CV with details of your educational and professional background, since that's what CVs are supposed to provide. The most you need to do is say your citizenship - if you are Dutch, you are Dutch, you don't have to qualify this by saying your parents are Turkish or whatever.
Also, Saudi employers aren't quite as obsessed with race as some on this board would have you believe. Most of them are well aware that not all "Westerners" have blonde hair and blue eyes. Experienced employers are quite used to hiring, say, African Americans or British citizens of Indian origin. It's really not that big a deal. |
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freesoul
Joined: 09 Mar 2009
Posts: 240
Location: Waiting for my next destination
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| dutchman wrote: |
Well, at least I am not Pakistani or Indian...In another topic, once it was said that Malaysians and Turks are higher on the ladder than Pakistanis and Indians...
l: |
This is a very offending statement to lots of ppl reading this forum now. I think you wanted to say 'in terms of hiring practices'!!
Cleo,
It won't be a lie if you are a native speaker of English, but don�t hold a UK, US, SA, Aus passport. So let's not mix the problematic definition of the 'native' with the employers' limited frame of mind regarding teachers' passports.
Ridiculously enough, I have seen some employers who would accept naturalized citizens of some countries who have strong accents, what you make of that!!! |
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manaafa
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Dear all,
There is discrimination in term of salaries. I work in an institution along with other native speakers. There are other non-native speakers, too. The salary package of the non-native speakers is the half of the native speakers�. Both of the groups are working in the same environment, sharing the same work load and producing the same results. This is not true only for this institute but for all through out the kingdom. WHY? |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Because they can...
As long as there are teachers who will take the jobs with the discriminatory low pay, the employers will continue to take advantage of them... supply and demand...
VS |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| manaafa wrote: |
Dear all,
There is discrimination in term of salaries. I work in an institution along with other native speakers. There are other non-native speakers, too. The salary package of the non-native speakers is the half of the native speakers�. Both of the groups are working in the same environment, sharing the same work load and producing the same results. This is not true only for this institute but for all through out the kingdom. WHY? |
Why? I will tell why?
Because they do not hold the RED/BLUE passport of the West, their eyes are not blue/green, and their average salary back home is Epsilon! .
This is the hidden law of Uncle Bandar, take it or leave it! |
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