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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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 Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| The meaning of the phrase is that you each have your own different beauties which are many(a thousand). I know that is awkward English. |
Indeed! Chinese prose sounds elegant and poetic when it�s literally translated. I am happy to read that both of you are making so much progress in a short time; that is short compared to my standards. Good luck with it, and I truly hope that it will serve your needs now, and to a greater extent with your future social and intimate relationships and careers!  |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| zipper wrote: |
| JZer wrote: |
| "snip" you can use this phrase if your girlfriend and her friend ask who is more beautiful. 你们，各有千處 (sorry I think this is the wrong chu first tone). I forget what character that chu is. |
You�re right. We all have good points and lesser points, and it would be nice if people on this dying planet would always appreciate each others� finer points instead of criticizing the short points.
Also, when I Romanize the sound of what you are saying I tend to get a �chiu� type sound; like Chee-o similar to the sound of this character 秋
Well, you braggers sound like you are doing a great job with the Mandarin studies. I am putting an effort into learning Taiwanese for personal and social reasons of course. |
At times, I've actually wondered whether I should switch over to learning Taiwanese. Quite frankly, it seems much easier (at least for my having-learned-Korean-already situation) than Mandarin...
Taiwanese pronunciation is MUCH closer to Korean hanja pronunciation than hanja pronunciation is to Mandarin. Sometimes, to amuse Taiwanese people, I read signs using Korean hanja pronunciation. They either remark at how similar it is to Minnanhua, or on more than one occasion, they've asked me how the heck I learned Taiwanese.
Taiwanese is also seldom written, from what I've heard. Most people write in standard Chinese, and Taiwanese has so many orthographies and so many standards, it has basically been fragmented into a spoken-only language. Chinese without the writing -- that's a much easier Chinese indeed!
However, at the end of the day, Taiwanese is only truly useful in Taiwan. Therefore, I think it would be a more prudent investment to learn Putonghua. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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However, at the end of the day, Taiwanese is only truly useful in Taiwan. Therefore, I think it would be a more prudent investment to learn Putonghua. |
I can only speak from second hand information since I do not speak Taiwanese but I have heard that Taiwanese speakers can mainly understand Fujinhua. |
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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| I can only speak from second hand information since I do not speak Taiwanese but I have heard that Taiwanese speakers can mainly understand Fujinhua. |
That's correct, and in some areas in Guangdong province as well. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:52 am Post subject: |
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This may all true, but I still think there's no argument as to which is more useful outside of Taiwan.
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BTW, I've noticed this phenomenon that I'm going to call the "I'M NOT A MORON!" phenomenon. IANAM phenomenon. I'm wondering if anyone has noticed it besides me...
This phenomenon refers to westerners who have learned one Asian language, but for whatever reason, are now living in a second Asian country that doesn't speak that language.
Trouble is, the locals think that person is an idiot. They look at his lack of ability in the local language and assume that he must be monolingual. They constantly offer him "language-learning advice" and say "you don't know our country's culture." He or she becomes depressed -- he/she HAS learned a language and IS intelligent, but nobody is recognizing him/her as such. Therefore, he or she contracts IANAM phenomenon...
He (or she, I've seen this with women, too) has only one option to prove IANAM -- seek out expats from the previous country he/she was in and show everyone, loud and clear, that he or she isn't a monolingual moron! For example, someone who just moved from Japan to Korea will make all sorts of ridiculous efforts to speak Japanese with elderly people, and will walk into every store and ask "Nihongo ga dekimasu ka?" A characteristic of IANAM phenomenon is that such people will often insist on using the obscure Asian language even when English is available!
I was definitely afflicted by IANAM phenomenon when I first moved to Taiwan. I kept on asking "Ni hui bu hui shuo hanguoyu?" "Ni hui bu hui shuo ribenyu?" all over the place. Then I eventually realized that Taiwan has only about 3,000 Koreans, virtually zero Japanese speakers (old people here can't speak Japanese worth a damn, that's a myth) and gave up doing that and just worked on my Chinese...
However, learning Taiwanese is an open invitation to IANAM phenomenon! 
Has anyone else noticed IANAM phenomenon? |
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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 10:55 am Post subject: |
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In retrospect, it�s conceivable, but not remotely certain within a hubba hubba vortex of vast uncertainties. One�s unforgivable and inexcusable minor peccadilloes could result in a linguistic relapse that occasionally needs to be retrofitted with various samples of berating intermediaries that could, if applied too thickly, torpedo the effort to construe one as "IANAM." Nevertheless, by your definition I suffer miserably from this phenomenon by unwittingly submersing myself in Taiwanese sub-culture attempting to assimilate by learning that appalling language that in one time or another was a crime to speak.  |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I was definitely afflicted by IANAM phenomenon when I first moved to Taiwan. I kept on asking "Ni hui bu hui shuo hanguoyu?" "Ni hui bu hui shuo ribenyu?" all over the place. Then I eventually realized that Taiwan has only about 3,000 Koreans, virtually zero Japanese speakers (old people here can't speak Japanese worth a damn, that's a myth) and gave up doing that and just worked on my Chinese.. |
Rooster, I had a Korean language exchange partner for my first two years in Taiwan, from around September 2007 until 2009. I was trying to maintain my Korean but it just became to much trouble. I studied up to Sogang University's book 5 in Korea. I know that is baby stuff compared to you. Rooster, what level to you reach in Korean? |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| zipper wrote: |
| In retrospect, it�s conceivable, but not remotely certain within a hubba hubba vortex of vast uncertainties. One�s unforgivable and inexcusable minor peccadilloes could result in a linguistic relapse that occasionally needs to be retrofitted with various samples of berating intermediaries that could, if applied too thickly, torpedo the effort to construe one as "IANAM." Nevertheless, by your definition I suffer miserably from this phenomenon by unwittingly submersing myself in Taiwanese sub-culture attempting to assimilate by learning that appalling language that in one time or another was a crime to speak. |
Oh no, learning Taiwanese in Taiwan is not IANAM phenomenon. Please don't misunderstand...
IANAM phenomenon is when you move to a second foreign country and everyone assumes you're monolingual, and you develop a complex to prove them wrong. I used to observe this all the time when I worked at a guesthouse in Korea, with "Japan experts" who suddenly found themselves in Korea, blundering around like the tourists they were. In an effort to say to the world "HEY, I'M NOT STUPID!" they'd try to speak Japanese wherever they went, even though far more people in Korea speak English than Japanese.
It also happened to me when I moved to Taiwan and my Chinese wasn't up to snuff. Once again, the need to say "HEY, I'M NOT STUPID!" and when communication broke down, try to use Japanese rather than English.
For example, if you learn Taiwanese, then move to China and constantly go around to stores asking "Is there anybody here who speaks Minnanhua?" that'd be IANAM.
Learning Taiwan for life inside of Taiwan is not IANAM. It's fairly normal.
What I was saying is that if someone learns Taiwanese, that person will experience IANAM when he/she goes outside of Taiwan, since basically nobody outside of Taiwan speaks Taiwanese. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I was definitely afflicted by IANAM phenomenon when I first moved to Taiwan. I kept on asking "Ni hui bu hui shuo hanguoyu?" "Ni hui bu hui shuo ribenyu?" all over the place. Then I eventually realized that Taiwan has only about 3,000 Koreans, virtually zero Japanese speakers (old people here can't speak Japanese worth a damn, that's a myth) and gave up doing that and just worked on my Chinese.. |
Rooster, I had a Korean language exchange partner for my first two years in Taiwan, from around September 2007 until 2009. I was trying to maintain my Korean but it just became to much trouble. I studied up to Sogang University's book 5 in Korea. I know that is baby stuff compared to you. Rooster, what level to you reach in Korean? |
I studied it for about four years, graduated from Yonsei University KLI, and scored Level 5 on the Korean Language Proficiency Test. Well, those are my paper credentials, but honestly, I always found my productive skills (speaking, writing) were FAR ahead of my receptive skills (listening and reading, which were lacking)...
I no longer worry about maintenance. I've been outside of Korea for nearly a year, and haven't noticed any major change in my Korean since leaving Korea. Various factors (Chinese words that sound similar, Korean tourists, the occasional un-dubbed TV program) keep it fresh in my mind with extremely minimal effort. |
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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
Oh no, learning Taiwanese in Taiwan is not IANAM phenomenon. Please don't misunderstand...
IANAM phenomenon is when you move to a second foreign country and everyone assumes you're monolingual, and you develop a complex to prove them wrong. I used to observe this all the time when I worked at a guesthouse in Korea, with "Japan experts" who suddenly found themselves in Korea, blundering around like the tourists they were. In an effort to say to the world "HEY, I'M NOT STUPID!" they'd try to speak Japanese wherever they went, even though far more people in Korea speak English than Japanese.
It also happened to me when I moved to Taiwan and my Chinese wasn't up to snuff. Once again, the need to say "HEY, I'M NOT STUPID!" and when communication broke down, try to use Japanese rather than English.
For example, if you learn Taiwanese, then move to China and constantly go around to stores asking "Is there anybody here who speaks Minnanhua?" that'd be IANAM.
Learning Taiwan for life inside of Taiwan is not IANAM. It's fairly normal.
What I was saying is that if someone learns Taiwanese, that person will experience IANAM when he/she goes outside of Taiwan, since basically nobody outside of Taiwan speaks Taiwanese. |
Ah ha! I understand what you mean now. Me thick headed sometimes. Upon your enlightening clarification, I finally got it; and I can personally identify with this "IANAM" phenomenon. While working in Korea, I felt compelled to prove that I wasn�t stupid by teaching some of the Korean elementary learners Chinese basic Mandarin just to piss off my fellow Korean co-workers that viewed me as being dumb(well, I guess that sometimes I am), because I could not communicate effectively in Korean. This phenomenon is true for some! |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| zipper wrote: |
| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
Oh no, learning Taiwanese in Taiwan is not IANAM phenomenon. Please don't misunderstand...
IANAM phenomenon is when you move to a second foreign country and everyone assumes you're monolingual, and you develop a complex to prove them wrong. I used to observe this all the time when I worked at a guesthouse in Korea, with "Japan experts" who suddenly found themselves in Korea, blundering around like the tourists they were. In an effort to say to the world "HEY, I'M NOT STUPID!" they'd try to speak Japanese wherever they went, even though far more people in Korea speak English than Japanese.
It also happened to me when I moved to Taiwan and my Chinese wasn't up to snuff. Once again, the need to say "HEY, I'M NOT STUPID!" and when communication broke down, try to use Japanese rather than English.
For example, if you learn Taiwanese, then move to China and constantly go around to stores asking "Is there anybody here who speaks Minnanhua?" that'd be IANAM.
Learning Taiwan for life inside of Taiwan is not IANAM. It's fairly normal.
What I was saying is that if someone learns Taiwanese, that person will experience IANAM when he/she goes outside of Taiwan, since basically nobody outside of Taiwan speaks Taiwanese. |
Ah ha! I understand what you mean now. Me thick headed sometimes. Upon your enlightening clarification, I finally got it; and I can personally identify with this "IANAM" phenomenon. While working in Korea, I felt compelled to prove that I wasn�t stupid by teaching some of the Korean elementary learners Chinese basic Mandarin just to piss off my fellow Korean co-workers that viewed me as being dumb(well, I guess that sometimes I am), because I could not communicate effectively in Korean. This phenomenon is true for some! |
It's true for almost everyone. When I worked at a guesthouse in Korea, I saw it all the time among our guests of various nationalities, especially with the "I just finished studying/teaching in Japan" crowd.
Personally, I've had bouts of IANAM phenomenon in China, Taiwan, and Japan. However, it has been the worst in Taiwan because there's no one with which I can speak either of my two main foreign languages, Korean and Japanese.
IANAM happens to the locals, too. Look at all the local English teachers (non-foreign) who have to show off to everyone how "elite" their English is.
I guess everybody has a need to prove "hey, I have a special ability, too!" Trouble with languages as a special ability is that:
1. A ten-year-old raised in a bilingual environment can always blow you out of the water
2. You often need to MAKE opportunities to show it off... |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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I guess everybody has a need to prove "hey, I have a special ability, too!" Trouble with languages as a special ability is that:
1. A ten-year-old raised in a bilingual environment can always blow you out of the water |
I am really going to have to disagree with you on this. Take for example a bilingual ten year old in Chinese-English. The ten year old might have an advantage in Chinese but I would blow him out of the water in English. A ten year old could not hold a candle to a university educated adult.
Personally I read about science and about chemicals in the brain like dopamine. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
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I guess everybody has a need to prove "hey, I have a special ability, too!" Trouble with languages as a special ability is that:
1. A ten-year-old raised in a bilingual environment can always blow you out of the water |
I am really going to have to disagree with you on this. Take for example a bilingual ten year old in Chinese-English. The ten year old might have an advantage in Chinese but I would blow him out of the water in English. A ten year old could not hold a candle to a university educated adult.
Personally I read about science and about chemicals in the brain like dopamine. |
You're correct, he wouldn't have the English ability that you or I have. His Chinese would almost certainly be better, but not his English.
However, what linguists disagree about is whether he has an innate advantage in blowing you out of the water later in life. Some linguists believe in "critical period," and a few don't (so few that non-believers are practically considered a cult).
I am going to argue that the critical period only exists for accents, and that in every other respect, an adult can learn at the same (or faster) rate than kids.
I used to believe that due to my "advanced age," I was an inferior language learner to a seven-year-old. That was before I actually taught seven-year-olds, and realized that for a seven-year-old, constructing a two-variable sentence (like (subject) want(s) a (noun)) is a Herculean task!
My (controversial) opinion is that if an adult were put through the exact same environment as an immigrant child (seven hours a day of school in the local language, local friends, constant teacher feedback, etc.) the adult would become "native" in an equally short time span, with the exception of accent.
Anyone care to debate this with me? |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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You're correct, he wouldn't have the English ability that you or I have. His Chinese would almost certainly be better, but not his English. |
His pronunciation would be better but even with only two and a half years of Mandarin study I could discuss certain things a ten year could not in Mandarin. One day my boss asked me in Chinese if I thought that Chinese would become a widely spoken language. I answered that the world languages previously were at result of colonization. Unless China starts colonizing other countries China will never be a truly world language. More people may learn Chinese to do business but it is unlikely that it would ever spread as much as English or Latin unless China colonizes.
I really doubt a ten year old could have this conversation. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun May 09, 2010 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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I used to believe that due to my "advanced age," I was an inferior language learner to a seven-year-old. That was before I actually taught seven-year-olds, and realized that for a seven-year-old, constructing a two-variable sentence (like (subject) want(s) a (noun)) is a Herculean task! |
But you are comparing apples and oranges. Of course a seven year old who does not use English outside of class will learn English slower than we would Mandarin. I think that most studies were of children who were exposed to the foreign language as immigrants not learning English in their home country as a second language. |
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