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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think you should have asked first, and given qualified reasons for the change.
But I also think the University is being far too strict and inflexible.
And as for confronting the guy in front of the student--it's bad form here, or back at home. You should have taken him outside or aside quietly and told him what you said.
It's a face thing, and one thing Chinese NEVER forget is someone who made them lose face. |
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kukiv
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| one thing Chinese NEVER forget |
If there was any sort of career attached to working in China this would be important - but for the normal FT 
The other thing forgotten in this sad tale - the CT came in and disciplined the FT's class over the head of the FT - If I was that FT I'd have been feeling very small the moment the CT told the student of the measures to be taken without first consulting me in private!!!!!!
If you don't intend to work at this school for another year, want to make sure that management don't get the impression they can roll-over FT's when they feel like it and just enjoy the feeling of sticking up for a logical right over preserving near-mindless rules and the precious local pecking order - then use this thread as a fine example of what can be achieved.
And threatening to go home - well because we are a scarce and wanted commodity that is the obvious card to play. So many jobs out there - why stick with crap!!!!!!!! |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Tainan, the point I am making is that although as FTs we may think that rescheduling "our little flock" doesn't affect the uni because the students do get the lesson and we give it, in order to run a uni management do and should have other concerns apart from the strictly educational. Running a uni requires organisation, planning, and everyone doing what they're expected to do. Which I suspect is a main reason why management doesn't like FTs making unauthorised changes.
Some FTs might think "but it's only one little change that hurts no-one!". However, management might look at the bigger picture and worry that that "little change" may become another little change and then lots of little changes. Management probably thinks that if doesn't allow any change/precedent then things will go more smoothly.
As teachers, maybe we've all had classes where we've told the students to follow some procedure in order to do some activity, but some student decides that s/he is going to do it a 'better' way. When this happens wouldn't it have been just so much easier if the creative/lazy student just did what they were told!? The class would run more smoothly, you'd have more time for other students and the 'problem' student would gain the benefit of the activity as you'd planned it. This isn't a perfect analogy, but maybe it helps some folks understand how the timetable planners/management may feel about 'rogue' rescheduling.
And if trying to understand management is abhorrent, then - as others have pointed out - rescheduling lessons is probably breaching the contract, and OP, FTs shouldn't go making Chinese people we work with or, (especially) for, lose face - it's just not good for us. |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| kukiv wrote: |
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| one thing Chinese NEVER forget |
If there was any sort of career attached to working in China this would be important - but for the normal FT |
Maybe I'm one of the few FTs who are making a career in China. I've continued studying, am more qualified and experienced and have worked at increasingly better schools. Also, when I first came to China 4 years ago I earned 3500rmb a month. From my next contract I'll be earning over 20,000rmb a month. Those of us who fester here do often have other options.
And to give a more direct reply to kukiv's statement, I'd say that anyone who has even a few days left on a contract here in China should seriously consider not making the Chinese staff lose face. They can think of a million ways to make your life hell in the time you have left at their school. |
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gene
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Gene: I pose this again:
Logic query: Did his actions cause inconvenience/suffering/hardship/confusion to the students?
Did his actions cause a possible/probable loss of income to the college?
Did his actions put anyone in mortal danger?
Will the world end due to his putting the balance of nature/power out of sync?
Did he connive to hide his intentions? Did his threats to the students involve dire bodilly harm and distress to their families?
Did he threaten to quit if his demands were not met?
If cp tried to ditch the class, he would be in the wrong. If he took it upon himself to reschedule the class after the holiday, he'd be in the wrong. If he imposed his will on the class disregarding their thoughts/feelings/input, he'd be in the wrong.
Two great forces at work here: the spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law; and, we agree to disagree.
Heck, I wish I could offer cp a job at my college...on the surface, he seems to be the type I want working for me.
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Thanks you Mr. Bear for the re-posting and I think it points to interpretation of the action that maybe a problem as it seems that many, including you, have decided to make this about Right vs. Wrong when in fact it is a policy question and nothing more and has zero to do with the "law". Even though you have compiled a fine list, which would indicate at least in your mind that the OP didn't have a sinister motive behind the action of rescheduling a class time without informing admin. I too agree with your assumption but lack of motive doesn't excuse the OP's failure to provide the information and seek approval from the administration. There is one item left off your list: Did the OP inform the administration and gain approval before he changed the schedule? If no, then he fail to abide by policy.
If I were the OP, I would definitely take you up on your offer of employment as your method of management seems to coincide with the OP's attitude towards work place procedures and it could be his "ultimatum" could be the encouraging factor that avails his career to a possible job search.
We have two basic lines of thought .... Should a teacher be able to ignore the schedule or should the teacher seek prior approval before enacting a schedule change. The actions of the FAO does not play as to this question. What remains after that is the seeking of a solution in which the students are not caught in the middle and the FT can continue without additional actions by management which could prove problematic for both the class and the teacher. I had a similar situation and believe me the replacement of a teacher is less difficult than trying to re-write policy with anal Chinese administrators. |
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kukiv
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| I had a similar situation and believe me the replacement of a teacher is less difficult than trying to re-write policy with anal Chinese administrators. |
Since the economic benefits from working most China teaching jobs are not too great - many FT's want take on a job for the adventure, a change, and enjoyment. I suppose, for many, a lot of the fun disappears when you start to come face to face with anal administrators - so why not leave and let them find a new teacher - what's the point in staying if you feel humiliated by a job 
I bet this Mianyang job is one of those 4000-6000/month 3rd tier uni gigs - hardly a career opportunity that craves embarrassing brown-nosing to work your way up to nowhere  |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| The OP took it upon himself to change the class time and location. The OP was wrong. Despite the students supporting said change, HE WAS WRONG. I've been PM'ing a couple of other posters and suggested we just stay out of this because it's such a no-brainer, but really, folks, ..................... |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| johntpartee wrote: |
| The OP took it upon himself to change the class time and location. The OP was wrong. |
Others would say he took some initiative (a leadership trait) to make a positive change that benefited a number of people . no harm came from the decision to make the change and anyone affected by it was happy with it.
the OP did make two mistakes though:
1. assuming his Chinese employers shared the same kind of thinking he does. while many of us from foreign/developed countries are trained to use initiative, to develop leadership, and to think for ourselves in the workplace, Chinese generally frown heavily upon these revolutionary ideas.
i've noticed this on a very personal level here in china. whenever i go anywhere, or do anything with chinese friends, or my gf, none of them can make even the simplest decision without checking with someone else first. i have to keep reminding my gf she's not a child anymore and can make some decisions on her own because the constant checking for approval drives me crazy. the inability to delegate ANY decision making authority to anyone not at the top doesn't bode well for the future of this country (or any other that follows a similar philosophy).
2. the second mistake:
| Quote: |
| That when I had about enough of the malarkey. I stood up, got in his face, and told him that if I or any student in this class was disciplined further over this matter that I would be catching the next plane back to America. He became bug eyed, turned and walked away. |
no need to get angry and climb all aboard people in this way, and you did cause him to lose face. but this guy helped bring it upon himself:
| caleypatrick wrote: |
| So, this afternoon Friday, he showed up at my classroom door 10 minutes after class started. He told the lone student that was speaking with me that all the students who were missing my class would be disciplined. |
kukiv already alluded to this point above: he went over your head (in a roundabout way) and could have done this before or after the class, but not DURING the class. of course why he did this is no mystery - butting in/interrupting (to a class, conversation, lineups, taking phone calls when someone else is talking to you etc etc) is just the way many things are done here.
| kukiv wrote: |
| If there was any sort of career attached to working in China this would be important - but for the normal FT |
just as most FTs are easily replaced, most english teaching jobs in china are also easily replaced. in the end though, rules are rules, even if they're stupid ones (our school has a few as well). if caleypatrick wants to keep that job, he knows what he has to do in future. |
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mrwslee003
Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 4:34 am Post subject: face & ego? |
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Interesting reading:
There are some different perspectives that may help to understand
why the face is important, like respect. To the North American male, I think "male ego" is just as important as "face" in Chinese culture.
If you somehow violate that male ego in a typical N American male you could probably have a fight in your hands right then and there. So taking away someone's "face" in China will certainly create an immediate adversary.
The response: "I would leave this job with a smile on my face" certainly implies that the consequences to the rest of the student body have not
entered into the equation of the above decision. I think that is the sad
part.
I believe an individual, any one, comes to China with good intentions -to contribute in a positive manner. Suddently, this individual finds himself in "hot water" and the first and last thing he would consider is get himself
out of the situation. The rest of his charge could "rot". He cares not.
There is a certain arrogance displayed here and it does not help to
minimize the conflict. On the contrary, it exacerbates the whole mole hill.
Countries have gone to war over such and in a small scale, human nature
is at work here. Unless we try to compromise and minimize damage in
human relations. I think whatever good intentions the individual had before entering the boundary have come to nothing.
Our "right" does not and should not mean "might"! |
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gene
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 4:46 am Post subject: |
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johntpartee wrote:
The OP took it upon himself to change the class time and location. The OP was wrong.
Others would say he took some initiative (a leadership trait) to make a positive change that benefited a number of people . no harm came from the decision to make the change and anyone affected by it was happy with it. |
If it was his role was to be a leader responsible for scheduled class times then his actions may have been perceived as a taking the initiative and as to "no harm" being a criteria as to whither the rescheduling was right or not, then what is the need for supervision or standard operation procedures. To assume that no one was affected ignores the possibility that procedures are in place to provide smooth operation of the organization and that it is the responsibility of the teacher to follow procedures and not to decide it they are warranted or not.
| Quote: |
| assuming his Chinese employers shared the same kind of thinking he does. while many of us from foreign/developed countries are trained to use initiative, to develop leadership, and to think for ourselves in the workplace, Chinese generally frown heavily upon these revolutionary ideas. |
This sounds more like a mistake blamed on culture. I doubt that any western educational organization would reward those who use their initiative and leadership to change the class schedule without prior approval, instead, they may be more incline to reward those who maintain the policies of the institution. If it is truly revolutionary to change class times then think of the rewards one could receive from canceling or rearranging whole blocks of the semester. Leadership is best illustrated by promotion of policies of the work place and by setting a good example, even in the face of a superior that does not exemplify the same attributes.
If it were this were on my plate, working with the limited knowledge of what the OP has provided, I would be concerned that this worker has a problem with authority and that additional conflicts were bound to surface. On the other hand Mr. Bear would welcome this worker into his fold which gives thought to the fact that different management styles do persist and it is important for the worker to be aware of the management styles before the conflict arises and to seek institutions with an acceptable (acceptable to the FT) level of supervisory input. |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| gene wrote: |
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| Others would say he took some initiative (a leadership trait) to make a positive change that benefited a number of people . no harm came from the decision to make the change and anyone affected by it was happy with it. |
If it was his role was to be a leader responsible for scheduled class times then his actions may have been perceived as a taking the initiative and as to "no harm" being a criteria as to whither the rescheduling was right or not, then what is the need for supervision or standard operation procedures. To assume that no one was affected ignores the possibility that procedures are in place to provide smooth operation of the organization and that it is the responsibility of the teacher to follow procedures and not to decide it they are warranted or not. |
supervision and rules in place are, by and large, merely guidelines to be followed and should be flexible. any organization that is so rigid in thinking, that can't adapt to and accept minor deviations from those guidelines, is doomed.
| gene wrote: |
| If it is truly revolutionary to change class times then think of the rewards one could receive from canceling or rearranging whole blocks of the semester. Leadership is best illustrated by promotion of policies of the work place and by setting a good example, even in the face of a superior that does not exemplify the same attributes. |
you're right, a good leader must first be a good follower.
however, one could argue, very successfully no doubt since communication isn't the strong suit of most of these schools, that the school never bothered to make the policy known to the FT in the first place. Some will say ignorance of the law is no excuse, but since information is such a hard commodity to come across here at the best of times, i can't blame anyone for breaking rules (rules that they never knew existed) from time to time.
btw gene, i had an accident a half hour before a class last year. i went straight to the hospital, phoning the monitor from there telling her the situation and to reschedule the class. upon return to the school that morning i was approached by an individual in a position of power (who was aware of my whereabouts) and i was told (without any concern for how i was doing or what happened to me) that the next time i need to be away from class on short notice and reschedule, i'd best go through official channels, or else apply for leave first. i contained my anger, nodded in that person's direction, and then proceeded to forget everything i was told. This is not the kind of leadership i'm willing to follow, which is why i insulate myself from it as much as possible. |
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mrwslee003
Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:42 am Post subject: initiative is good, but |
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Initiative is good, but demanding that it should be recognized and even be rewarded as such is where we got our noses twisted and our sense of
justice mauled. The reaction from the authority does not meet our expectations and our sense of self worth is damaged.
We make him lose face in front of his subordinates and he made me lose
my sense of righteousness because I did it for "the good" of the students. I had good intentions and why is he so "stupid" he can't see that?
I am not going to feel a thing about his "face" since he didn't feel a thing for the "good" I did for the students. I am going to take this thing right to
that Square since I am "right" and common sense tells me I am
"right"............
In the higher plane, is it any wonder we have international problems? |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Compromise is the key, but both sides (school/FT) need to be willing to give up something to succeed. |
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gene
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| supervision and rules in place are, by and large, merely guidelines to be followed and should be flexible. any organization that is so rigid in thinking, that can't adapt to and accept minor deviations from those guidelines, is doomed. |
My organization's guidelines are in place to be observed and I don't think the post is centered on the school refusal to change class times but rather on the FT not seeking prior approval which would not be considered to be minor. I would think any FT that fails to accept guidelines is doomed in their job.
you're right, a good leader must first be a good follower.
| Quote: |
however, one could argue, very successfully no doubt since communication isn't the strong suit of most of these schools, that the school never bothered to make the policy known to the FT in the first place. Some will say ignorance of the law is no excuse, but since information is such a hard commodity to come across here at the best of times, i can't blame anyone for breaking rules (rules that they never knew existed) from time to time.
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First, this is a policy and not a law which means no judicial review to consider if it is just or not. So in your mind it takes a published rule to establish the idea in an FTs mind that he or she should not change class times without prior approval. Perhaps that rule was dictated or implied in the contract and as I don't really know for sure I cannot speak to the legitimacy of changing class time without prior approval. It would seem more common sense to me than anything else and a successful argument as to the breaking of rules not known would indicate that the FT tried to find out before action as opposed to informing the admin after the changing of class times. I could buy your point if the FT was breaking a rule which is not normal in an educational environment. I would think most schools do not allow teachers to change class time without prior approval. If you had information which would indicate this most educational environments allow teachers to change class schedules without prior approval then perhaps I could buy the idea that since communication isn't the strong suit of most of these schools, breaking rules (rules that they never knew existed) from time to time is to be expected. But really are you gonna defend the notion that an FT doesn't know that changing class times without prior approval should and would have been frowned on. On top of that he has now created additional conflict with the administrator.
| Quote: |
| btw gene, i had an accident a half hour before a class last year. i went straight to the hospital, phoning the monitor from there telling her the situation and to reschedule the class. upon return to the school that morning i was approached by an individual in a position of power (who was aware of my whereabouts) and i was told (without any concern for how i was doing or what happened to me) that the next time i need to be away from class on short notice and reschedule, i'd best go through official channels, or else apply for leave first. i contained my anger, nodded in that person's direction, and then proceeded to forget everything i was told. This is not the kind of leadership i'm willing to follow, which is why i insulate myself from it as much as possible. |
I would reckon that this story is supposed to prove your point, but I would have also ask why not call the administration and take care of that through official channels. A courtesy call to the class would have been in order as well. If the concern of your management was not up to your expectation, and that is not the leadership you would like to subject yourself too, then insulation (or leaving) is the best policy and perhaps one the OP should adapt as well. |
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kukiv
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
supervision and rules in place are, by and large, merely guidelines to be followed and should be flexible. any organization that is so rigid in thinking, that can't adapt to and accept minor deviations from those guidelines, is doomed.
My organization's guidelines are in place to be observed and I don't think the post is centered on the school refusal to change class times but rather on the FT not seeking prior approval which would not be considered to be minor. I would think any FT that fails to accept guidelines is doomed in their job.
you're right, a good leader must first be a good follower.
Quote:
however, one could argue, very successfully no doubt since communication isn't the strong suit of most of these schools, that the school never bothered to make the policy known to the FT in the first place. Some will say ignorance of the law is no excuse, but since information is such a hard commodity to come across here at the best of times, i can't blame anyone for breaking rules (rules that they never knew existed) from time to time.
First, this is a policy and not a law which means no judicial review to consider if it is just or not. So in your mind it takes a published rule to establish the idea in an FTs mind that he or she should not change class times without prior approval. Perhaps that rule was dictated or implied in the contract and as I don't really know for sure I cannot speak to the legitimacy of changing class time without prior approval. It would seem more common sense to me than anything else and a successful argument as to the breaking of rules not known would indicate that the FT tried to find out before action as opposed to informing the admin after the changing of class times. I could buy your point if the FT was breaking a rule which is not normal in an educational environment. I would think most schools do not allow teachers to change class time without prior approval. If you had information which would indicate this most educational environments allow teachers to change class schedules without prior approval then perhaps I could buy the idea that since communication isn't the strong suit of most of these schools, breaking rules (rules that they never knew existed) from time to time is to be expected. But really are you gonna defend the notion that an FT doesn't know that changing class times without prior approval should and would have been frowned on. On top of that he has now created additional conflict with the administrator.
Quote:
btw gene, i had an accident a half hour before a class last year. i went straight to the hospital, phoning the monitor from there telling her the situation and to reschedule the class. upon return to the school that morning i was approached by an individual in a position of power (who was aware of my whereabouts) and i was told (without any concern for how i was doing or what happened to me) that the next time i need to be away from class on short notice and reschedule, i'd best go through official channels, or else apply for leave first. i contained my anger, nodded in that person's direction, and then proceeded to forget everything i was told. This is not the kind of leadership i'm willing to follow, which is why i insulate myself from it as much as possible.
I would reckon that this story is supposed to prove your point, but I would have also ask why not call the administration and take care of that through official channels. A courtesy call to the class would have been in order as well. If the concern of your management was not up to your expectation, and that is not the leadership you would like to subject yourself too, then insulation (or leaving) is the best policy and perhaps one the OP should adapt as well. |
This is hillaroius - I think the poster must have been confused and made a mistake when posting that last piece on Dave's. Obviously it was intended for a forum that dealt with how to get a fast track career in corporate America 
Rules or no rules - lots of the FT jobs in China can't help but beg you to be the rebel |
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