Job Discussion Forums

[AGoodStory]

[johnslat]

Dear the_thinker,

"I choose not to listen to much of this 'advice' as it seems to be based not on scientific analysis of how language is actually used, but on personal prejudice, and generally since the writers of these guides are not respected linguistics I don't care for their judgements on what is correct or not."

Would you be willing to name a few (not a little) "respected linguists" who posit that it's OK to disregard the "count/non-count" rules, or, for that matter, who regard "Me and my friends________" sentences as acceptable?

Don't get me wrong - I teach my students (in pronunciation) such items as "gonna", "hafta," and "wanna" (although I make sure to emphasize that they shouldn't WRITE them that way.) Another example is that I point out that when they make a "Would you mind" request, they'll generally receive a positive response:

"Would you mind opening the window?"

"Sure."

And I'm as against "nonsense rules" such as the "never end a sentence with a preposition" and "never split an infinitive," (Does anyone really still teach that sort of thing?) But I'm afraid I can't go along with some examples you mentioned.

Regards,
John

[johnslat]

Desr johntpartee,

"Okay, so I'm not a comedian, but I couldn't resist an opening like that."

Don't underestimate yourself. I happen to think you're a pretty funny guy.

Yup, I could have gone on and considered doing so in exactly the manner you wrote. However, I figured, "Why should I have all the fun? Leave some room for johntpartee or Sasha."

I'm just too nice a guy.

Regards,
John

[the_thinker]

The funny thing about fewer/less is that we all get on just fine using only the word 'more' for both countable and uncountable nouns; for some reason, it's alleged we need two words for the opposite meaning. 'Fewer' has a much shorter history than 'less', which we have been happily using with countable nouns for centuries. But for some reason, in the eighteenth century some people decided they didn't like that any more.

As for respected linguistics, I'd start with the article I linked to in my earlier post by Ronald Carter. You could also look for work by Mike McCarthy or Douglas Biber. All of these people are happy to let corpus data speak for themselves, rather than insisting on saying that some of what the corpus shows is somehow 'incorrect' usage. The good thing about corpus linguistics is that we have corpora available for various registers and contexts; we can therefore see which forms are and aren't used in, say, academic contexts, and advise students accordingly. I have taught EAP in various universities and I certainly don't go around telling them that they should write "Me and my research colleagues investigated X". I'd also say that they should use fewer + plural noun in academic writing, because that is the form that an academic corpus would show to be more common. But I also teach General English, and I'm happy to teach that 'my friends and I' is OK in informal spoken English, as is less + plural noun. And a corpus of spoken English, such as CANCODE, would back me up on those being attested, common usages. Considering the amount of grammar that is included in most General English coursebooks, I hardly feel that it's too much for students to get their heads around.

I want to go back to the original question, which was as follows:

[johnslat]

Dear the_thinker,

"But why should you trust them over your own experience as a native speaker, having communicated successfully your whole life in your native language?"

Ah, but I do trust my own experience - which is why me and you (little joke there) disagree about some matters.

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Booze is a great word. I have a great fondness for it - and not just the word! However, I think we can all agree that it is a word that can only be used in a particular setting. A formal document would not be a place you'd expect to find it. Not formal enough. But it is of a great age, about two or three centuries, yet still we'd say it was incorrect to use it there. Just a matter of style perhaps.

However, look at another venerable item which most people would shy away from calling correct - ain't. Been in the language for years. We all understand it. We all use it. But would we ever say it was correct English, even when talking with me and me friends? I doubt it somehow.

That's the problem with common usage - just so common!

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

I'm sure no one would ever call you "a common English teacher."

Regards,
John

[Sashadroogie]

Gods, 'tis true, that!

I lead the struggle for the Common Man, but I'll be damned if I'm called common. So distasteful. So... well, so vulgar!

[johnslat]

Dear Sasha,

So οἱ πολλοί

"We've been invited to a cocktail party
Over by the palace wall
I've not been dressed up since my graduation
Haven't been around at all
Look what happens when you reach the top
The whole world is your oyster
You walk 'round like a bleeding fop

Meet me outside the curiosity shop
No need to bring money
Life can be so funny
When you're hangin' around with the hoi polloi

The countess wipes her nose upon her sleeve
Doesn't think that we can see
The duke of astinbury has to leave
He's afraid to dance with me
Look what happens when you've got it made
Everyone respects us
No more mingling with the local trade

As the hostess checks the sky for rain
Her fifteen year old daughter
Drives the patriarchal letch insane

We'll be hangin' around with the hoi polloi"

Utopia

Being rockers, of course they made the common error of using "the" with hoi polloi. Hmm, if it's a "common error," guess that makes it right.

And, of course, the context would suggest that they think "hoi polloi" means something like "the upper crust," which is, of course, the opposite of its real meaning.

Regards,
John

[Isla Guapa]

[Sashadroogie]

Aw Isla Guapa, haven't you never done sung 'Is you is or is you ain't my baby'? Cracking little tune.

[johnslat]

My favorite ain't:

"Well I'm a-gonna raise a fuss, I'm gonna raise a holler
About workin' all summer just to try an' earn a dollar
Everytime I call my baby, to try to get a date
My boss says, "No dice, son, you gotta work late"
Sometimes I wonder what I'm gonna do
'Cause there ain't no cure for the summertime blues

Regards,
John

[Isla Guapa]

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

Give it up, Sasha! Isla Guapa, obviously, can't get no satisfaction!

NCTBA

[Isla Guapa]