Job Discussion Forums

[ntropy]

Sheesh, the point about the joke was that yes I did expect him to get angry. Any sane person would,being attacked. That was my point. Brits are patriotic. The joke was said cause I knew it would shut up his extremely rude jokes about Canada.

Besides which, the UK queen is also, as a Cdn, my queen, and I feel justified insulting her any way I want. The point of the joke is I don't
want her as a queen but have no choice. The british component of Canada is infinitely more smaller than say.... the Ukrainian or Chinese one where I live.

[SueH]

So many points to reply to, so apologies for any incoherence.

For starters lets compare the English with the Scots which is always good for a bit of banter. DMB in reply to a joke said -
'It's not supposed to be funny. I'm Scottish.' If he was English I'd know he was taking the p**s, but in this case I'm not sure and he might be saying it in all seriousness. An English person is more likely to make a joke about our own colonial dependency on the US in a self critical way whereas the Scots always seem to have the let out of blaming the English.

To ntropy, I'd say that she may be my Queen, but like all our monarchs since William I, she's from a foreign family and I didn't choose her either.
The joke you refer to was in rather bad taste but I know lots of English people who'd laugh at it as well, but probably reply with a dodgy Canadian joke.

Talking of Canada, I once had a student summer holiday job in Ontario and our employer took a group of us English students to a local bar for a drink and to listen to a rather ropey local C&W band. Our boss really got upset about our comments about the band, and seemed to take it as an insult to Canada. He didn't seem to grasp in his defensiveness that all of us disliked C&W. That was in 1975 so hopefully there's a bit more confidence around there now. In England I think we often have a sort of rueful acknowledging acceptance of the elements of truth in criticsm which is quite a positive attitude to have.

I think I should also comment about the issue of expression of patriotism through football, which causes a great deal of embarassment to many of us. Unlike the Dutch abroad, for example, there is an association of such travelling support with right wing racists, to the extent that many England fans don't go abroad for that very reason. I'll quote from a newspaper article at the time of the last Euro tournament in 2000: "England's departure from the tournament has once again led to an immediate and noticeable raising of standards , both on and off the pitch. At every game there are more English (and many Scots too) than neutrals of any other nationality bar the hosts.... you'll bump into friendly, knowledgeable English fans who will help with tickets, and advice on restaurants and accommodation. It was the same in France 98,. You'll even find them at the Africa Cup of Nations, the Asian Championship ....". So we have both the worst and the best fans in the world, illustrating both the best and worst aspects of our character.

Our natural inclination is to support the underdog, so this summer at Euro 2004 we'll support Latvia and the like. If Scotland or Wales were there we'd support them as well, although in the former case this is rarely reciprocated.

I've also noticed that although there may be a degree of pride in our flag or the exploits of the army or navy occasionally it's not taken to any excess. There isn't the nauseating American (possibly media led) attitude to the flag, or any prosecution in the UK of somebody abusing or burning our flag which has certainly happened to drunken tourists in places such as Greece and Turkey.

Anyway, I promised incoherence, and courtesy of a rather good Barossa Semillon I have delivered.
My apologies...but at least I'm not teaching my asylum seekers and immigrants tomorrow. They all seem happy enough to be here in 'ampshire....

[FGT]

Just to illustrate the difference between Turkey and England:- the other day I was teaching an intermediate level class something about habits, cultural mores, etc and they had difficulty in comprehending that not all countries respect the flag, Ataturk (or similar figurehead), banknotes (as a representation of the above) etc as they do. In order to give them an idea of British attitudes, I deliberately tore a �20 note (having calculated that I didn't need it in Turkey - damaged foreign notes are not accepted whilst extremely tatty Turkish ones are - and that I would have no problem using it in UK) they nearly fell off their chairs!

I agree with the previous poster that perhaps we link patriotism with nationalism and therefore avoid it.

Born and brought up in southern England, I choose to call myself British, rather than English (Welsh, Irish and other blood). I feel that I am European now that I live outside Europe, I've chosen Turkey (long term) and can be quite patriotic about that. The only time I feel patriotic about England is when people who lack experience criticise it. We can, they can't. However, I am grateful and, in a way, proud, to have been born in England, it's certainly helped me. The fact that I'm doing this job in this place says it all.

[SueH]

Dear FGT,

Please send tatty destroyed �20 to me and I promise to put it to good use in drinking your health... or if you really must insist I'll put in in a local charity box....

[Slim Pickens]

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[johnslat]

Dear Slim Pickens,

From this site:

http://www.quinion.com/words/turnsofphrase/tp-coo1.htm


COOL BRITANNIA
"When I first wrote about this catchphrase, in March 1997, I said�with more than a hint of hope�that it promised to be temporary. Alas no, it is now (March 1998) everywhere in the British press. The Economist wrote on 14 March that �Many people are already sick of the phrase�. It started to appear in the British press near the end of 1996, shortly after Newsweek declared London to be the coolest capital city on the planet."

[mjed9]

Did anyone watch this program - I was in England at the time when the Beeb did a documentary on it

Aussie is 'heir to English crown'

A forklift truck driver in a remote Australian town is the rightful King of England, a historian has claimed.

Dr Michael Jones says Queen Elizabeth's claim to the throne is false because her distant ancestor, Edward IV, was illegitimate. He concludes that the crown should have passed instead through another royal line which today ends at British-born Michael Abney-Hastings, 62.

"King Michael" said he was shocked by the news - but remained a republican. He said it was "unlikely" that he would go to Buckingham Palace to claim the crown.

Archer rumours

Dr Jones' thesis, explored in a recent television documentary, suggests that Edward IV, who reigned from 1461 to 1483, was conceived when his parents were 160 kilometres apart. His "father", Richard Duke of York, was fighting the French at Pontoise, near Paris, while his mother, Lady Cicely Neville, was at court in Rouen. She was said to be spending much of her time in the company of a local archer with whom she was rumoured to be having an affair. Dr Jones said Edward IV's alleged illegitimacy means the crown should instead have been passed down the Plantagenet line - ending at Mr Abney-Hastings. The unlikely heir lives in Jerilderie, a small town 640km southwest of Sydney, in New South Wales, where he moved from the UK as a teenager.

"I don't think it's really sunk in yet," he said.

The farm forklift truck driver said he had already known he was descendant of the Plantagenet family - and 14th Earl of Loudon in Scotland - but never guessed he could be a contender to the throne.

"I'm definitely a republican," he said.

"As much as I love England, I honestly feel in this day and age Australia should be standing on its own feet in everything, and that means we have to be a republic. In the last referendum we had on it, I actually voted to become a republic."

God save King Michael?

He said it was "very unlikely" he would go to London and demand entry at Buckingham Palace. But he quipped, "I'll hedge my bets."

Mr Abney-Hastings, who is widowed, said he was treated the same as ever by friends and family - except on Christmas Day, when he was welcomed to dinner with a rendition of God Save the King. He said his eldest son had not mentioned inheriting his crown, and warned: "He'll have to wait. It's not available till I go." Buckingham Palace, meanwhile, refused to respond specifically to the claims, saying any conclusions reached in the television documentary were "a matter for the programme makers".

[Slim Pickens]

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[Slim Pickens]

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[Capergirl]

I don't see how anyone could consider Canadians to be more patriotic than Americans. I find that our neighbours to the south tend to be much more enthusiastic with the patriotism. Have you heard the chants of "U-S-A...U-S-A" at any and all international sporting competitions? Have you seen the lawns spray-painted red, white, and blue? Have you witnessed the patriotic, hand-over-heart incantations of "I pledge allegiance to the flag..." in schools, at scouts and girl guides, and most other places U.S. children congregate? Now, I have no problem with any of it, but please don't tell me that we Canadians are more patriotic. I don't buy that.

Incidentally, I believe that the Molson commercials are intended to be more funny than patriotic. The one with "Joe", ranting about the differences between Canada and the U.S., is really us Canadians laughing at ourselves. We do do that, y'know.

[ntropy]

An Irish fellow I once worked with likens the hand-on-heart thing to a Nazi salute. Can't say I disagree.

[wordgirl]

This is very interesting to me. Many of us from the USA find the flag-mad U-S-A chanters embarrassing. The fact that people from other countries tend to see all of us as flag-mad chanters makes those of us who are not even less likely to sing our country's praises.

Perhaps the English reticence is a holdover from a similar phenomenon, from when England was the 800-pound gorilla of the world.

Just a thought.

[leeroy]

Thanks, everyone, for some really interesting replies