Job Discussion Forums

[Phil_K]

[Guy Courchesne]

As a matter of fact, quite the opposite.

Training is not a mere qualification or piece of paper but specific guided practice applying the ability to think a problem through in teaching. My interpretation and focus as far as my work goes anyway.

[Phil_K]

[amaranto]

To give you another opinion about Georgal, I worked there for about 6 months when I first moved to Mexico City. I was initially drawn in by what seemed to be professionalism on their part, but this wasn't how it was once I actually started working there. I don't personally know any foreigners who have stayed there for over 6 months (though these people exist, of course), as the pay is not good (though not the worst), they are misleading in their committments to their teachers (regarding where you will be teaching, etc.), and some of the staff is rather petty. I just got the feeling they're a lot more about appearance than substance, and it was very frustrating for me.

I knew one American guy who left when I did and got a job at International House. He says he liked it a lot more because they're not so anal about the dress code, pay is better, and teachers are treated better. They also have a CELTA course or something similar, don't they?

This is just my opinion based on my experience, but, looking at your experience and taking into account your lack of experience teaching--a good reason for considering language schools as a starting point--be picky when considering which language schools to work for, and try to speak with people who have worked there. You might think it's a good idea to settle for a simple program that hands you the basics for starting a teaching career, but the lack of professionalism and interest in real development that is the norm in some places could drive a person with your r�sum� and life experience insane.

[davidmsgi]

Thanks very much for the input.

It seems clear that I can likely secure an entry-level ESL teaching position soon, but picking the school or organization that results in a long-term favorable 'match' for both sides remains my biggest challenge.

Any feedback of the type you have offered is really valuable to me, since without this forum I would have no way of obtaining 'inside' information about schools and ESL providers beyond what I can glean from the web and the interview process. The web and interview process are, of course, always designed to show the company or school in a favorable light, so they are never the best means of learning 'what lies beneath'.


Thanks again.

davidmsgi

[Guy Courchesne]

[Guy Courchesne]

davidmsgi, are you already in Mexico City? Why not give yourself a good amount of time to set up meetings with prospective employers, tour facilities, talk with as many people on the ground as you can? Or if you're not here yet, plan for that tour time. Keep in mind that you have lots of choices, so make the school work for you in this respect. Red flag anyone who won't let you talk to other teachers on staff or won't show you school materials or watch a class.

[Phil_K]

[davidmsgi]

Guy - I live in Mexico City.
I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

Exchanging messages on this forum has been invaluable, and a substitute for making the rounds of the schools and potential ESL companies that might be potential employers of a 'newbie' like me. I recognize that some responses on this forum are from individuals with 'agendas', or ill will from current or past experiences in the Mexico ESL teaching market. I factor this fact into my analysis of the feedback offered.

I was a 'headhunter' for high-level corporate positions at some very large US and global companies. Even the most seasoned, senior-level corporate executives were often at a loss to gather and analyze true 'inside' feedback and information from prospective employers. The 'dog and pony show' that was offered during the interview process and visits to a prospective employer typically offered little in the way of 'on the ground' information, and little insight into the true feelings and morale of the employees. Many companies designated specific 'loyal' employees to serve as 'volunteers' to chat with prospective employees, and offer 'the inside scoop' on life at the company. In most cases, these 'volunteers' were simply hand-picked 'cheerleaders' for the company, and their feedback was of little objective value.

If the language schools in Mexico are smart, they should be ready for a request for a tour, and have a 'loyal' teacher ready for a quick chat.

So I can request the opportunity to chat with teachers, or take a tour of the facilities (how would I know what to look for?), but I wonder if these exercises would provide more insight than comments on this forum from current or former employees who can speak freely with no risk or concern about reaction from the companies / schools in question?

Is it likely that I might visit a language school, ask to chat with a teacher, and have the teacher whisper to me "don't come here, this place sucks"?

(On a humorous note, what if I visit a half-dozen schools, and at EVERY one of them, the teachers tell me "don't come here, this place sucks"?)

I wouldn't know quality teaching materials from bad ones, so I can't really make that assessment. Watching a class sounds like a great idea, but I hear that many English-language classes in Mexico are conducted in Spanish - and I can't really speak Spanish yet.
(But I smile and nod my head a lot when I don't understand what I'm hearing - and it works like a charm.)

So I wonder how much I could really ask from prospective employers in terms of making them 'impress' me and make a strong case that they are the best choice for beginning my ESL teaching career. I expect that I will be the one in the 'hot seat', not the companies, since I am the one seeking a job in a field without experience or credentials.

I just don't feel that I have the knowledge or experience to make effective 'assessment' visits, so I anticipate that my interview visits will be my only trips to most schools or prospective employers.

I'm worried about being able to communicate with the receptionists at these places - will they be able to talk with me in English, or will I be reduced to smiling and utilizing sign language to request an interview?

Don't get me wrong.
I'm certainly not lacking in self-confidence.
In my professional field, I know I'm an expert and a star, and during my career I've made numerous companies 'jump through hoops' to try to impress me when I was invited for a visit. I interviewed THEM more than they interviewed me.

But this is Mexico, I'm not in my field any longer, and I don't even speak the language here. From my vantage point, any visit to a prospective employer is a challenge and a risk of a lost opportunity if I don't handle it with care. So I'm in no hurry to make a lot of school visits requesting teacher interviews, classroom observation, or textbook examinations.

Can you understand my perspective?
Feel free to let me know if you believe I am wrong.

davidmsgi

[Enchilada Potosina]

[Guy Courchesne]

davidmsgi , sorry, I thought you were recently arrived or on the way down. My suggestion stays the same though as you must know the city some and can get to more schools than a recent arrival could.

I do understand your perspective and you make very good points. I think you overestimate the abilities of language schools to trot out a cheerleading squad though (made me laugh as I immediately imagined something like a spontaneous crowd of North Koreans breaking into song and dance extolling the virtues of Great Leader). My earlier post seemed to suggest a completely arranged visit though I also had in my mind an unannounced drop in - not the most professional thing to do but I do think you have the advantage over the school in most cases.

While you shouldn't be expected to be able to asses teaching materials, I think looking at the overall resources available at a school is something you could do. The same goes for watching classes - from a newbie perspective, you can look at the environment and decide if that's a place you can see yourself in.

English classes taught in Spanish (which happens but certainly isn't true everywhere) are a good example - if a potential employer drops you into such a class and you can't speak Spanish, well we can rule out that school. Things I'm thinking you would look for are the number of students (3 or 4 students or big classes of 30?). Are you watching a drill sergeant lecture on grammar or are you watching a teacher playing hangman to bored teenagers? Or something in between? How old are the students and what age groups are you going to be comfortable with down the road teaching?

I think you could probably form a very accurate opinion based on your own goals and comfort zones after seeing a few places, or get an average idea as to what the language school market has to offer for the work place. I don't even think it would be that difficult to get accurate opinions from teachers employed there...they aren't hard to find away from a manager's gaze.

A very good example is the Interlingua on Genova St in Zona Rosa. The school is very open, with lots of people coming and going. I couldn't tell you if they'll lie to you about teaching wages and such but it's very easy to catch teachers coming and going and to see the students the school attracts.

[davidmsgi]

I appreciate your ideas and suggestions very much.

I will be making the rounds of the language schools in the next couple of weeks. I will make sure to share any funny or horror stories.

Hopefully, the funny will greatly outnumber the horror.

davidmsgi

[davidmsgi]

I can't imagine that a language school would offer a classroom visit, textbook examination, or teacher conversation until first assessing ME as a prospective teacher. Once I reach the point where a school is ready to offer a position, then the dynamic changes completely, and the advantage moves to me as the 'candidate'. At that point the candidate can reasonably make requests for additional information, discussions, class visits, text examinations, etc. as part of the decision process.

If were the school, I would not allow a 'drop-in' visit for a prospective teacher. I would first request and expect an interview, testing, certificate examination, and a decision on whether the prospective teacher was of interest, and merited an offer. Only THEN would I open the doors of my organization to scrutiny by the new employee 'prospect'.

So, upon arrival, the questions should be:
Why are you here?
Are you a prospective student?
Are you a prospective teacher?
If teacher, we would like to interview you, test you, etc.

No, we won't allow class visits, text examinations, or teacher interviews BEFORE we decide if you're of interest to our school as an instructor.

But AFTER we decide we want you, OF COURSE you can get these things as part of our effort to 'sell' you on joining our organization.

Isn't this this logical and likely approach/outcome that I should expect on an unscheduled 'drop-in' visit to a school for the first time?

[Guy Courchesne]

[Prof.Gringo]