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GuestBob
Joined: 18 Jun 2011
Posts: 270
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 Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| dean_a_jones wrote: |
I recruit for my school, but am well supported by both the office team and other teachers. I am not afraid to recommend my school or take a punt after doing an interview. Some work, some don't, but I am not letting down 'friends' nor am I part of a system that abuses those who sign up. I am honest about the good and the bad, and gain respect as a result.
It works for where I am, and I am appreciated on both sides for it. I prefer to help hire those who will be working with the system we have in place. I can be frank with the teachers about what to expect and honest with the staff about the potential teachers (in regards to level and support needed). I have also helped in recruitment of Chinese English teachers, but I don't feel my input has really been considered; rather I think that is about me being part of a team.
Anyway, that is my experience in recruiting in China, for better or worse. |
Just to be clear, this is ideal - I think it is a valuable service and an excellent way to help craft a good team of teachers within a school/University.
I am not so keen on referring people I do, or do not, know outside of a formal system (like a panel). |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| GuestBob wrote: |
Just to be clear, this is ideal - I think it is a valuable service and an excellent way to help craft a good team of teachers within a school/University.
I am not so keen on referring people I do, or do not, know outside of a formal system (like a panel). |
Agree it is ideal and am lucky to land where I did, combined with my own willingness to work for where I am. I don't always agree with the place, and have had issues, but do feel part of a unit--which sadly is not the case for so many here.
Anyway, what I have found is that being open, honest and firm is really what counts here. I love where I am but it is not without fights at times. What is needed is solidarity and support, and a firm stance. Solidarity (FTs) strangely seems to be highly underrated and unused--before coming here was dealing with labour rights in the developing world (including China) as well as dealing with unions in the UK, and it was not too different. Divide and conquer is the OP from above. |
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Timer
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Posts: 173
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| what contract did you sign? Did you sign a faxed contract before you arrived at the school? When you signed it did it have the school's signature on it? |
I signed a vague contract in the beginning that I emailed back as part of the application process. It had no signatures on it when I received it. Since arriving I haven't signed anything, though they gave me a copy of the contract I had signed with their school stamp on it. They haven't asked me to sign anything in their presence yet.
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| you mentioned needing a release letter from this school. |
I'm not sure if I need one or not, that is what I'm trying to figure out. From what I can gather you need the release letter if you have a residence permit. Is that correct?
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| Are you the only foreign teacher there? |
No, there are quite a few others actually. They are all of the mind that you need to spend your first few paychecks making your apartment live-able and after a year maybe you can rent a nicer place. Why they think this is acceptable is beyond me. This is one of the reasons I doubt I could convince the school to provide a better place.
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| Before you threaten leaving, though, try to give yourself some options by making some applications for other jobs. If you get some other offers it will give you a bit of breathing space. |
Yeah I've been doing that the last week and will continue to do so until I find something. I'd much rather have something to go to before mentioning anything to the school. Hopefully that will happen.
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| By the way, did you acquire the Z visa before you came to China? This will affect your chances of a successful outcome, too. |
Yes, I received an invitation letter and work permit, used those to apply for a Z visa and came over on that. So far I have not received a residence permit or foreign expert certificate, probably as the contract has not started yet, I don't know. Is this a good or bad thing? |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| GuestBob wrote: |
| igorG wrote: |
What's up with the two posts above? Are they suggesting we shouldn't help recruiting for our schools so much   |
You recommend someone, then you are responsible for them. Are you being purposefully obtuse? |
No, i am purposefully keen on following the gist of Timer's posts. In any case, is this thread about recruiting, helping to recruit, or recommending prospective FTs?
| Quote: |
Silent Shadow wrote:
what contract did you sign? Did you sign a faxed contract before you arrived at the school? When you signed it did it have the school's signature on it?
Timer replied:
I signed a vague contract in the beginning that I emailed back as part of the application process. It had no signatures on it when I received it. Since arriving I haven't signed anything, though they gave me a copy of the contract I had signed with their school stamp on it. They haven't asked me to sign anything in their presence yet. |
This has just happened to me as well. After i signed a contract and after i asked the contract to be signed by Party A and then sent back to me, i have received the contract with only an official (or so i hope) stamp in the section of Party A. Never mind the ambiguity in most, if not all, local employment agreements, employers are probably dense on purpose.
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Timer:
From what I can gather you need the release letter if you have a residence permit. Is that correct? |
It is a must in many locations as far as i know.
| Quote: |
Timer:
I received an invitation letter and work permit, used those to apply for a Z visa and came over on that. So far I have not received a residence permit or foreign expert certificate, probably as the contract has not started yet, I don't know. Is this a good or bad thing? |
This is interesting. In a way, it's a good thing your contract hasn't started yet. Perhaps, if you quickly find another employer who can solve your problem, you'll be just fine. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Timer wrote: |
| I signed a vague contract in the beginning that I emailed back as part of the application process. It had no signatures on it when I received it. Since arriving I haven't signed anything, though they gave me a copy of the contract I had signed with their school stamp on it. They haven't asked me to sign anything in their presence yet...Yes, I received an invitation letter and work permit, used those to apply for a Z visa and came over on that. So far I have not received a residence permit or foreign expert certificate, probably as the contract has not started yet, I don't know. Is this a good or bad thing? |
Alright, so I assume you still have your passport in your possession, need to go for the medical or whatnot and if you had been satisfied would have been sorting this all out in the next few weeks with the school.
So the real question is, what is the status of someone who arrives on a z-visa (which is linked to a specific school through the application, invitation letter etc), but has not converted it into the residency permit yet.
As you have already come in on the z-visa, I am simply not sure. I really don't know how tied into the school you are as you are halfway through the process of legally working in China. These are just guesses, but if you simply wanted to jump ship, I think you would need to either leave and obtain a new z-visa, or get a release letter. In terms of a new z-visa, I don't know how easy it would be to get one in the same province. In terms of a release letter, I don't know how amiable the employer will be given that they paid for your documents to get here. The fact that you have not signed the official paper contracts with them yet probably works in your favour anyway.
I would still say negotiation is not a bad idea, regardless of what you perceive the other teachers seem to be willing to put up with. The semester starts soon, you are here and they have sorted out your stuff, so they may be willing to hear you out and make changes.
Hopefully someone else on here can actually explain the ramifications of being 'in limbo' as you seem to be. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Your Z-visa will not note the sponsoring institution. You, and your new employer, have 30 days to convert it to an RP. You have no FEC, so getting this is the first step. Because you don't have an FEC or an RP, you will not require a release letter because you aren't extending an RP. You don't have to transfer anything, just apply for the FEC and RP as if the new employer was the Z sponsor. Your negotiations with the original Z sponsors will have to be dealt with.
You seem to have signed a contract, and vague or not, you must negotiate out of it.
Do you have possession of your passport at this point? I hope so.
For you, the clock is running out fast. If you don't get that Z converted right away, you're going to have a mess on your hands.
RED |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Timer wrote: |
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| what contract did you sign? Did you sign a faxed contract before you arrived at the school? When you signed it did it have the school's signature on it? |
I signed a vague contract in the beginning that I emailed back as part of the application process. It had no signatures on it when I received it. Since arriving I haven't signed anything, though they gave me a copy of the contract I had signed with their school stamp on it. They haven't asked me to sign anything in their presence yet.
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| you mentioned needing a release letter from this school. |
I'm not sure if I need one or not, that is what I'm trying to figure out. From what I can gather you need the release letter if you have a residence permit. Is that correct?
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| Are you the only foreign teacher there? |
No, there are quite a few others actually. They are all of the mind that you need to spend your first few paychecks making your apartment live-able and after a year maybe you can rent a nicer place. Why they think this is acceptable is beyond me. This is one of the reasons I doubt I could convince the school to provide a better place.
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| Before you threaten leaving, though, try to give yourself some options by making some applications for other jobs. If you get some other offers it will give you a bit of breathing space. |
Yeah I've been doing that the last week and will continue to do so until I find something. I'd much rather have something to go to before mentioning anything to the school. Hopefully that will happen.
| Silent Shadow wrote: |
| By the way, did you acquire the Z visa before you came to China? This will affect your chances of a successful outcome, too. |
Yes, I received an invitation letter and work permit, used those to apply for a Z visa and came over on that. So far I have not received a residence permit or foreign expert certificate, probably as the contract has not started yet, I don't know. Is this a good or bad thing? |
It looks like a release letter is not needed. The Z visa is only a permit that allows you into the country to work. What do you need release from? Whether you've signed a proper contract or not is unclear. I don't think that matters too much, in the circumstances, as technically they have you there on false pretences.
Your best bet is to negotiate a better apartment (you shouldn't have to negotiate something they promised you, but this is China). On second thoughts as they've lied to you already, it might be best to cut and run (tell them first), as they may do worse later. What do the other FTs say about the school following the contract? Find out if their dishonesty persists.
It doesn't mater if there are 50,000 FTs there who have agreed to their apartments. The school lied to you, and you are not happy with the conditions. That's it!
It might be a good idea to print out a copy of the email that mentions the age of the students and other stuff they lied about. If a third party needs to get involved it may be useful. Is there an appendix to the contract and does it mention the things promised that they lied about? If so, that would help make the contract void (if it ever was valid).
In a nutshell, negotiate, look for other work in the meantime, and do everything to prove that they mislead you. Whatever you do, don't sign anything else unless you're happy to stay there! |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
| Your Z-visa will not note the sponsoring institution. You, and your new employer, have 30 days to convert it to an RP. You have no FEC, so getting this is the first step. Because you don't have an FEC or an RP, you will not require a release letter because you aren't extending an RP. You don't have to transfer anything, just apply for the FEC and RP as if the new employer was the Z sponsor. Your negotiations with the original Z sponsors will have to be dealt with. |
If your Z-visa does not note the original sponsoring institution, why do you have to deal with it under the circumstances? Your FEC and RP can be arranged with the new employer, can it not? |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:42 am Post subject: |
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anybody with real experience in this situation? is the z-visa
tied to the sponsoring institution? (my guess would be yes)
as i recall, when i accompanied my fao to get the
residence permit, they weren't much interested in my
documents. they spent most of the short time examining
the school's certificates. i imagine there just might have
been some work permit paperwork, or a copy of my
invitation letter in there somewhere.
just 'cause the z-visa doesn't note the sponsor, doesn't mean
there's no connection after issuance. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
| anybody with real experience in this situation? is the z-visa tied to the sponsoring institution? (my guess would be yes)...just 'cause the z-visa doesn't note the sponsor, doesn't mean there's no connection after issuance. |
Yeah that was my thinking as well--it does not state anything about the institution on the actual visa, but surely the sponsorship paperwork they had to obtain for you to get the z-visa, letters in duplicate etc. are lodged somewhere--I had always assumed with the local PSB. Would they not notice if another school shows up with your passport and visa and tries to get it changed to a RP and FEC for them instead?
Anyway, before you attempt that I would certainly try hear from someone who is not just making guesses on an internet forum--that might be someone at a new school who can check with the PSB, as you will surely have to explain the situation to anyone you want a different job with anyway. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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checking my scanned copies of the documents my first uni
sent me for z-visa application, i've got:
1. invitation letter. on uni letterhead, with uni seal, with employment
dates.
2. work permit, numbered document, stamped by provincial and national
expert bureaus. includes work permit number and my passport
number. also includes the dates of future employment and the
name of the institution. oh, and it says to apply in thighland.
3. visa notice, also a numbered document instructing me to apply in
thighland. stamped by the provincial foreign affairs office, it also
has my passport number and school name.
....and of course the FEC has passport number and hiring institution. |
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Miles Smiles
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1294
Location: Heebee Jeebee
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| Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| "thighland"? |
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Timer
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Posts: 173
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:41 am Post subject: |
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I got a uni job and have left the initial school. I'm not entirely sure the uni completely understands my position. They seem to be a bit confused and are reluctant to admit it but they have told me I need a release letter from the first school. The reason they want it is more of a way to be sure they won't be in any legal trouble, at least that's how I understand it. I may not need it for the Z visa as, like people have pointed out, there is no marking on the paper indicating who it is linked to. There may be some sort of database type thing, I guess I'll never know.
During my job search I had one place claim they could fix the problem but I had a bad feeling about them. Everyone else either didn't understand my situation at all (either they didn't understand my email or didn't read it properly) or couldn't offer any concrete resolution to it.
If there are any new developments I will post them. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the update, please do let us know how it develops.
Good luck. |
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