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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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 Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| Does 'open' describe eat or does it describe mouth? I think it describes mouth. |
Fluffy's avatar should know the answer to that!  |
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Dilton
Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Anyway, this is a simple case. Open describes mouth. It is an adjective. There is nothing "adverby" about it. Adjectives usually go before the noun, but not always.
Technically you'd call this one a participle adjective. |
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artemisia
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Location: the world
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| I thought this wasn't worth discussing (?). It's an open and shut case now, is it? Your opinion, Sasha? |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:50 am Post subject: |
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My mouth there is what is known as a 'wide-open snaggle-toothed stinking maw'.  |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| Dilton wrote: |
Anyway, this is a simple case. Open describes mouth. It is an adjective. There is nothing "adverby" about it. Adjectives usually go before the noun, but not always.
Technically you'd call this one a participle adjective. |
Anything resembling a rule for this, so as to pass on to students? |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| Besides, I'm not so sure that 'open' is a participle adjective. Surely it would have the form 'opening' or 'opened'? And wouldn't it need a linking verb such as 'to be' or 'to seem'? This seems to be the case in English, though I couldn't comment on Mandarin. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ooh, I noticed that you mentioned that you've studied some Mandarin, Dilton! (So have I, for what it's worth!). How would you say 'Don't eat with your mouth open', then? I guess I'd be able to come up with a few possible ways (to my mind at least, and ability, such as it is[n't] LOL) of expressing it, but it isn't a phrase that I've ever studied or used (versus things like 'Be quiet!'), so I'm not sure if my attempts would be quite idiomatic enough. (Best thing probably would be for me to hit the dictionaries and phrasebooks then before coming back with an answer!). |
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Dilton
Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| fluffyhamster wrote: |
| How would you say 'Don't eat with your mouth open', then? |
1. You wouldn't! Chinese of all ages eat with their mouths open all the time, and no one says anything.
2. Literal: Chi fan buyao zhang zui.
2. More idiomatic: Chi fan buyao shuo hua. (Don't talk when eating.)
Chi fan buyao you shengyin. (Don't make noise when eating.)
Zhang zui zenme chi fan? (How you gon' eat when yo' mouf be open, fool?) |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:43 am Post subject: |
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How would you say 'Don't eat with your mouth open', then?
| Quote: |
| 1. You wouldn't! Chinese of all ages eat with their mouths open all the time, and no one says anything. |
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Heh, sure, the Chinese sure do enjoy their food, but I simply meant how one would translate the sentence (so that e.g. those Chinese who might be spending time in western countries would know what's considered [im]polite). Thanks for supplying some translations though, which seem fine/make sense! 吃飯不要張嘴；吃飯不要説話；吃飯不要有聲音；張嘴怎麽吃飯. (Wow, each sentence popped out fine and complete from Microsoft Pinyin IME, without any need to select from any range of suggested homophones. Not often that happens...but then, usually I'm looking for some quite obscure character to enter into some material or other that I'm writing, rather than inputting actual sentences!). |
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Dilton
Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| but I simply meant how one would translate the sentence |
Yes, but it is not always simple when vastly different cultures are involved. This sentence is almost the equivalent of asking an eskimo how to describe, in his native language, the different types of beach sandals. Or an Amazon jungle native, who wears no clothes, how to say "high heel shoes." Or an Amish person how to say "do it froggy style" in Pennsylvania Dutch. It might be technically, grammatically possible, but it hardly computes.
Note that the idiomatic translations put the focus on issues around the mouth being open, not on the openness itself:
If the child is talking, then he is not focused on eating. A well-fed, even fat, child is a sign of prosperity and good parenting in China. So the mouth being open, to talk, could be interfering with the eating.
If the sound gets too loud even for the Chinese -- I don't want to imagine how loud that would have to be -- then the sentence I provided could be used. The problem is the sound and, again, not the openness itself. You might hear a parent say this when the kids are making sounds on purpose -- playing and, again, not giving it their all in terms of eating.
But the notion of having your mouth open and generating a bit of sound while eating is, simply, not considered a problem in mainland China. And therefore the literal translation doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense without further explanation. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:42 am Post subject: |
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There's surely a world of difference between getting an Amazonian rainforest dweller to understand what high heel shoes are (quite a difficult task, one would imagine), and getting a reasonably well-educated Chinese person to understand western table manners (a relatively easy one)! And it isn't too difficult (for me anyway) to understand the "Chinese mindset" either (at least, how you're describing it, Dilton) - I lived in China for a couple of years.  |
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Dilton
Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| There's surely a world of difference between getting an Amazonian rainforest dweller to understand what high heel shoes are (quite a difficult task, one would imagine), and getting a reasonably well-educated Chinese person to understand western table manners (a relatively easy one)! |
Not so big a difference as one might think. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:30 am Post subject: |
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Well, I've never actually mentioned or dwelt upon Chinese versus western table manners with Chinese people, or even with westerners (until now, that is!), and to be honest I'm not sure it's much of a discussion topic. What I do imagine would be fun though would be to cast high heels as some sort of tarantula-impaling walkabout implement if and when I'm teaching in the Amazon and a curious native catches sight of my drag gear all laid out on my camp(ing LOL) bed.  |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Ahem! |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| fluffyhamster wrote: |
| Well, I've never actually mentioned or dwelt upon Chinese versus western table manners with Chinese people, or even with westerners (until now, that is!), and to be honest I'm not sure it's much of a discussion topic. What I do imagine would be fun though would be to cast high heels as some sort of tarantula-impaling walkabout implement if and when I'm teaching in the Amazon and a curious native catches sight of my drag gear all laid out on my camp(ing LOL) bed. |
You can put that on your "Things I Fantasize About Doing with my Drag Gear" list. Which, from what everyone says, is quite extensive. |
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