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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: come on guys |
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| We are devolving into this same pattern. Lets see, if I denigrate the honest thoughts of someone else it will make me better, right? Come on. I am not going to waste my time going thru and finding all the quotes, but some of them were pretty silly. You are teachers, you should know facts when you see them. The only native speaker in the world to take the TOEIC. Oh please. Do not begin to defend such a statement as that. If that is your approach, it is not the kind of discussion that I want to be a part of. I have studied job search and taught it for quite a while, not English, job search. I know what I see. Yeah, this tool may not work for EVERYONE, but to call it rubbish, absurd, and whatever else does not reflect very well on you. It is just an idea, and it actually was proven in real life tests, more than once, and I can flat out guarantee you there is more than 1 native speaker to have taken this test. Okay, if you find this discussion to instead be an opportunity to prove whatever it is about yourself you want to prove, I think you have been successful on that, so thanks for that, and sorry I could not help you. |
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Beautiful Loser
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I've been asked for a TOEIC score by a perspective employer. I moved on to the next one, after advising them that they brush up on what credentials they should be asking for. I don't really see any harm in a teacher taking the test, however. I just won't be taking it any time soon! |
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generalgiap
Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it would be mildly alarming if anyone participating in threads on this forum wasn't aware that TOEIC is what it is. I may have used the words like qual or cert without particularly thinking my usage of words, but to imply that people posting in this thread aren't aware that TOEIC is a test to measure the ability of non-native speakers is well, just a little bit condescending, in my opinion. |
If one calls it a cert and/or a qual, this is an indication that one does not understand the TOEIC or needs to review the English language?
Was looking for some fill in work from my regular deal (which does not require a cert at all) and found the hiring managers pretty clueless about the TESOL thing, they just see it as a pass/fail requirement. The TOEIC thing really blew their dresses up though.
As I previously stated, must be a cowboy outfit run by an idiot.
| Quote: |
| However, my point remains - the poster got value from doing the test and there is nothing wrong with a bit of innovation in securing work. Again, personally, I wouldn't recommend it, but the suggestion that seems to be being bounded around on this thread is that a TOEIC cert would somehow taint one's TEFL career permanently, meaning one would only be able to apply for poor jobs is patently false. As it appears to me, the poster was only trying to offer up an alternative that has worked for them. The poster explained how it worked also- in quite a lot of detail. Pretty altruistic in my opinion, posters and in general teachers can sometimes play their cards a little closer to their chests. |
I don't believe everything I read on Dave's or on any blog, newspaper etc.
It is always better to be skeptical than to believe everything you read.
May I suggest taking one of these tests and put it on ones CV and send CV to one of the reputable schools- British Council, ACET, RMIT, etc and it's a guarantee one won't get an interview. Well, there is a possibility that one may still get an interview if you are highly qualified, but then why would you take an English language assessment test if you have an MA, DELTA etc?
| Quote: |
| Actually, recently a very experienced teacher in my centre took the TOEFL test - 2 foreign teachers did in fact. The experienced teacher (having taught classes for all 3 main tests for years) honestly neither has any idea why they were doing the test but did it anyway. The experienced teacher got the highest score. At the moment that teacher is getting good hours at the moment. Kh�ng? yes. Perhaps there is another reason (the teacher in question should always have been getting good hours anyway, we're lucky to have such an experienced teacher), but the fact is that teacher is getting the hours. |
Same answer as above, it may never have happened. However, most people know why they are spending over 100 usd for taking a test etc.
I doubt that the teacher has a lot of hours because he got a high score on the TOEFL. But it may be the case if he is working at the same school that is run by that idiot who doesnt know what a TEFL cert is and the TOEIC score blew her dress up??
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| It seems that one problem in VN is the additional distinction between language ability and teaching ability isn't made enough (alls well that ends well though - this teacher has both). |
An educated native English speaker generally has the language skills but if you are an average American adult with a 9th grade reading ability, then you may want to take an English language assessment test to make sure that your English is better than your students.
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| Yeah, this tool may not work for EVERYONE, but to call it rubbish, absurd, and whatever else does not reflect very well on you. It is just an idea, and it actually was proven in real life tests, more than once, and I can flat out guarantee you there is more than 1 native speaker to have taken this test. Okay, if you find this discussion to instead be an opportunity to prove whatever it is about yourself you want to prove, I think you have been successful on that, so thanks for that, and sorry I could not help you. |
I am not trying to toot my horn and not to be disrespectful, but with over 20 years experience in this industry, and I have worked in recruitment and management positions for numerous EFL schools including the Council and RMIT. This is the first time that I have ever heard of a native speaker taking one of these tests and/or including it on their CV. I am writing this for others so they know that it is nothing but complete and utter RUBBISH!
Best of Luck |
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Jbhughes
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| generalgiap wrote: |
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| I think it would be mildly alarming if anyone participating in threads on this forum wasn't aware that TOEIC is what it is. I may have used the words like qual or cert without particularly thinking my usage of words, but to imply that people posting in this thread aren't aware that TOEIC is a test to measure the ability of non-native speakers is well, just a little bit condescending, in my opinion. |
If one calls it a cert and/or a qual, this is an indication that one does not understand the TOEIC or needs to review the English language? |
Was there anything about any of my previous posts that offended you? Or perhaps something I've said in another thread? Do I owe you an apology? Whatever it was, I will apologise anyway and can assure you that my intentions wouldn't have been personal, probably just clumsy.
| generalgiap wrote: |
| Quote: |
Was looking for some fill in work from my regular deal (which does not require a cert at all) and found the hiring managers pretty clueless about the TESOL thing, they just see it as a pass/fail requirement. The TOEIC thing really blew their dresses up though. |
As I previously stated, must be a cowboy outfit run by an idiot.
| Quote: |
| However, my point remains - the poster got value from doing the test and there is nothing wrong with a bit of innovation in securing work. Again, personally, I wouldn't recommend it, but the suggestion that seems to be being bounded around on this thread is that a TOEIC cert would somehow taint one's TEFL career permanently, meaning one would only be able to apply for poor jobs is patently false. As it appears to me, the poster was only trying to offer up an alternative that has worked for them. The poster explained how it worked also- in quite a lot of detail. Pretty altruistic in my opinion, posters and in general teachers can sometimes play their cards a little closer to their chests. |
I don't believe everything I read on Dave's or on any blog, newspaper etc.
It is always better to be skeptical than to believe everything you read.
May I suggest taking one of these tests and put it on ones CV and send CV to one of the reputable schools- British Council, ACET, RMIT, etc and it's a guarantee one won't get an interview. Well, there is a possibility that one may still get an interview if you are highly qualified, but then why would you take an English language assessment test if you have an MA, DELTA etc? |
Perhaps I'm naive, but I took their post in good faith. I'm not entirely sure what purpose the poster would've had in attempting to mislead others. You're entitled to your own opinion of course, but I've read lots of their posts and not found any of them to be spurious in nature.
I agree with you regarding those type of schools. Actually, I'm not sure if anyone in this thread has suggested that they don't agree with you when it comes to that type of school. Not everyone working in VN has those type of qualifications though. Lots don't and come to this forum for ideas and options that don't include the level of commitment required for a DELTA / MA. Lots haven't even taken an initial teaching qualification, the subject of this thread was indeed that very topic. For lots of people working in VN, the reality is not a continuum of professional organisations. I respect those that have achieved that from the start, but this is not the option for everyone, all the time. I maintain the poster's honest offer of advice.
| generalgiap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Actually, recently a very experienced teacher in my centre took the TOEFL test - 2 foreign teachers did in fact. The experienced teacher (having taught classes for all 3 main tests for years) honestly neither has any idea why they were doing the test but did it anyway. The experienced teacher got the highest score. At the moment that teacher is getting good hours at the moment. Kh�ng? yes. Perhaps there is another reason (the teacher in question should always have been getting good hours anyway, we're lucky to have such an experienced teacher), but the fact is that teacher is getting the hours. |
Same answer as above, it may never have happened. |
NOt sure how to reply to this. Should we do it pantomime style? Yes, they diiiiid........ Noooo....... they diiiiddn'tt........... Yes, theyyyy diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidddddddddd..........
| generalgiap wrote: |
| However, most people know why they are spending over 100 usd for taking a test etc. |
You're aware that teachers are being assessed countrywide using TOEFL at the moment? All of the VN teachers at the centre had to do the test and those 2 foreign teachers I mentioned were coerced into doing it, too. None of the teachers were issued with an official certificate, although the test was marked independently. Their results were in the form of a paper slip, that can't be used as a proof of TOEFL score in the same way that a certificate can. The foreign teachers haven't had to pay anything to take the test or receive the paper slip. Given all of these facts (perhaps you will have to consider them in some way less that facts, unless of course you're prepared to believe that I'm not lying) and that most of said teachers, our boss and myself were trăm phần trăming it with the director of one of the 3 branches of IIG not so long ago, I doubt that the school paid too much to put them all through their tests.
| generalgiap wrote: |
| I doubt that the teacher has a lot of hours because he got a high score on the TOEFL. But it may be the case if he is working at the same school that is run by that idiot who doesnt know what a TEFL cert is and the TOEIC score blew her dress up?? |
The boss is a businessman first and foremost and surely isn't the only one of this type in VN.
| generalgiap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It seems that one problem in VN is the additional distinction between language ability and teaching ability isn't made enough (alls well that ends well though - this teacher has both). |
An educated native English speaker generally has the language skills but if you are an average American adult with a 9th grade reading ability, then you may want to take an English language assessment test to make sure that your English is better than your students. |
My point was that the reliance on the white man and those with high TOEFL scores as the be all and end all of English education is folly. Someone once explained to me that the martial art in this country - vovinam - is taught by coping the master. The sts who best copy and learn the masters moves will be the most successful at the fighting style. This concept seems to purvey a little further than the ring.
The knowledge of the system you have gained here in the last decades would surely be of benefit to the OP. What qualification would you suggest? are there any other things they can be doing to improve their job search chances? |
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deadlift
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| Jbhughes wrote: |
However, my point remains - the poster got value from doing the test and there is nothing wrong with a bit of innovation in securing work. Again, personally, I wouldn't recommend it, but the suggestion that seems to be being bounded around on this thread is that a TOEIC cert would somehow taint one's TEFL career permanently, meaning one would only be able to apply for poor jobs is patently false. As it appears to me, the poster was only trying to offer up an alternative that has worked for them. The poster explained how it worked also- in quite a lot of detail. Pretty altruistic in my opinion, posters and in general teachers can sometimes play their cards a little closer to their chests.
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Yes, he found value in doing it, and shared his advice. He's a helpful poster and not some fool.
However, other posters think the advice is a little silly and likely to more harm than good in some contexts. It's quite important that they refute mark's advice, I think.
I once binned an application because the applicant spent an page outline all of the part-time jobs they had in high school: washing dishes, packing groceries etc. All they demonstrated by doing that is that they have no idea about which skills and experience to prioritise for a teaching job. Common sense really. By the same token, including a test score intended for second language learners on your CV will not necessarily forfeit a job, but will earn a "WTF?" at best, provided the person doing the hiring has any clue.
And to be fair, the part of your post that I bolded is overstating the criticism quite a bit. |
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deadlift
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Jbhughes wrote: |
| Not everyone working in VN has those type of qualifications though. Lots don't and come to this forum for ideas and options that don't include the level of commitment required for a DELTA / MA. |
You don't necessarily need a DELTA or MA to teach at any of those schools. |
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Jbhughes
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Ye, maybe I went a bit far. You're probably right. I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with the naysayers either. As I've stated before on this forum, I'm out of the scene with regards to HCM/HN and as such for my own advice - I can only really re-conjure up the advice offered up by others on this forum.
It's pleasing to hear about the DELTA/MA situation.
I hope everyone enjoys their Sunday and it doesn't rain tooooo much where you are. Oh and perhaps enjoy the rugby? Argentina - Sctoland looks like it could be a good match. What about England yesterday? The Kiwis still look big favourites to me though. |
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generalgiap
Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: |
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generalgiap wrote:
However, most people know why they are spending over 100 usd for taking a test etc.
You're aware that teachers are being assessed countrywide using TOEFL at the moment? All of the VN teachers at the centre had to do the test and those 2 foreign teachers I mentioned were coerced into doing it, too. None of the teachers were issued with an official certificate, although the test was marked independently. Their results were in the form of a paper slip, that can't be used as a proof of TOEFL score in the same way that a certificate can. The foreign teachers haven't had to pay anything to take the test or receive the paper slip. Given all of these facts (perhaps you will have to consider them in some way less that facts, unless of course you're prepared to believe that I'm not lying) and that most of said teachers, our boss and myself were trăm phần trăming it with the director of one of the 3 branches of IIG not so long ago, I doubt that the school paid too much to put them all through their tests.
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There is currently a pilot programme in some provinces in Vietnam to assess English language teachers level of English using the TOEFL test who teach in govt. schools. It is not nationwide. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with private EFL schools. Therefore, IF, a private EFL school decides to assess their Vietnamese EFL teachers, so be it, but it has nothing to do with MOET( Ministry of Education) programme. In addition, if there were some native speakers who sat a past TOEFL paper at a language centre, this has nothing to do with the original discussion concerning a native speaker paying money to sit the real TOEIC test and putting it on their CV to help for employment opportunities. Its comparing oranges to apples, I already stated that I have taken past TOEIC test papers and I suspect that thousands of other EFL teachers have also taken the test from past test papers and other tests such as TOEFL IELTS etc to
give them more knowledge etc etc concerning the exam before teaching the exam preparation course. But this has nothing to do with the discussion. Finally, the Vietnamese EFL teachers are sitting the real TOEFL test conducted by ETS not a past paper for obvious reasons.
| Quote: |
Jbhughes wrote:
Not everyone working in VN has those type of qualifications though. Lots don't and come to this forum for ideas and options that don't include the level of commitment required for a DELTA / MA.
You don't necessarily need a DELTA or MA to teach at any of those schools.
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| Quote: |
| It's pleasing to hear about the DELTA/MA situation. |
I wrote
| Quote: |
| May I suggest taking one of these tests and put it on ones CV and send CV to one of the reputable schools- British Council, ACET, RMIT, etc and it's a guarantee one won't get an interview. Well, there is a possibility that one may still get an interview if you are highly qualified, but then why would you take an English language assessment test if you have an MA, DELTA etc? |
There is a possibility that my statement above was misunderstood. My point was that if you put it on your CV no one but an idiot would interview you, but if you were highly qualified they may because of your qualifications. However, it would still be very odd etc.
However, at no time did I state that you needed those qualifications to work at those specific schools. In fact, most teachers who work for those schools do not have the DELTA or an MA. Furthermore, many coordinators/managers also do not but some teachers have the quals.
The exception may be the British Council concerning senior teachers, coordinators, managers, difficult to get those jobs without a DELTA, MA etc.
| Quote: |
| The knowledge of the system you have gained here in the last decades would surely be of benefit to the OP. What qualification would you suggest? are there any other things they can be doing to improve their job search chances? |
I would suggest the following for obtaining the better paid jobs in the EFL industry in Vietnam or anywhere in the world. However, I will focus on Vietnam.
First, pay close attention to the original certificate, there are many TEFL certs out there but most of them are substandard. I would only take the CELTA due to the above and because of the standards and it is recognised as the certificate with the highest standards. This is the area where a lot of people make the mistake, in particular, Americans. This is probably due to the fact that the CELTA is not popular in the States, there are only a few places to take it there. In addition, most universities in the US have a TESL programme but most of those programmes are not for students who are going abroad but for qualified teachers who need an endorsement/qual etc to teach ESL in elementary/high school. The teachers are already teaching a subject but may teach a few classes in ESL etc.
After obtaining a TEFL cert, hopefully the CELTA, it is critical to get a job in a reputable EFL school not a cowboy outfit. In fact, working at these substandard schools can have a major impact in preventing one from getting a good job at the best schools.
Once you are teaching at a reputable school, it's best to move out of the childrens classes and teach adults unless you want to be a coordinator etc in a childrens programme. I would like to clarify that there is nothing wrong with teaching children but generally the salaries are lower and there is not much room for advancement etc compared to teaching adults. Of course, one may be lucky and obtain a teaching position in one of the international schools but unlikely due to the competition etc etc. At some point, one should realize that the best paying teaching jobs in the EFL market in Vietnam is teaching academic English. For example, ACET pays 34USD per hour, this info is from a friends who work for acet in hanoi and hcmc, may be more or less, but the pay is excellent compared to other schools10% tax, 100 hours a month, take home ~3000usd. RMIT English programme is basically an academic English programme, I know quite a few teachers who make 3000 nett, possibly more, level leaders, 4000 usd ++ net etc. Therfore, try to teach academic English as quickly as possible.
So you have the CELTA or equivalent and youre teaching at a reputable school, whats next? A higher qual, DELTA/MA etc. But lets say you cant commit dont have the money etc. One should try to become an examiner, UCLES or IELTS. However, the IELTS is the way to go, one can take the two day course at the Council or at IDP in HCMC. Once you become an IELTS examiner, you have a lot of power to move into these academic programmes even if you dont have the CELTA. The IELTS examiner test is very difficult to pass the first time but they give you a second chance to pass it after taking the course. About 80% fail the first time and about 50% pass the second time. The pay is not great for testing the oral component, but one can make good money on the written section.
Anyway, the reason the IELTS is more important then the other exams is there are a lot of Vietnamese teaching TOEFL/TOEIC but very few are capable of teaching IELTS, in particular, bands 5.5 or higher.
I would like to point out that the above is not a thesis on how to get the better jobs and could write 20 pages on it. But after many years-20 years in the efl market in Vietnam and over 400,000 usd in the bank to show for it, no house, I may be wrong or right? Also money is not everthing, but when one has a family and no pension, it will be critical for the future. There is no doubt that there are many other opportunities in the education field in Vietnam but if you have a celta etc, experice teaching in reputable schools, IELTS examiner status, one will do very well here.
Best of luck.
Last edited by generalgiap on Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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generalgiap
Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:14 am Post subject: |
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coloradofirefly
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:52 am Post subject: |
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I took the CELTA course at Apollo HCMC this past summer, and really enjoyed the course. It was a lot of work, but I feel like I now have a good starting point for teaching. I didn't find the course humiliating nor were the trainers as critical as they could have been. The trainers at Apollo, Andy and Paula, were fantastic. We didn't have to share resources with the normal teachers (though we could also use their photocopier), though we did have to kick kids off our designated work stations at times. The facilities were nice. However, there were times the Internet was slow or down, where printers weren't working, and where the copier broke down. It was annoying, but I felt like I learned some things from those experiences too.
Andy did note that the training department and teaching department at their schools have a degree of separation, so one doesn't necessarily reflect on the other. I did meet some teachers too, some of whom worked at ILA in the past. As some have said, Apollo is smaller, and one teacher felt Apollo was a bit more personal.
My thoughts, based on my time there. |
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generalgiap
Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the facilities at ILA and Apollo, there is no doubt that ILA's facilities are at a much higher standard than Apollos. Dont beiieve me, go there yourself and check out both schools.
Furthermore, Apollo is turning into a cowboy outfit regarding its salaries.
This comes from their latest ad,
Contractual benefits of working for Apollo
� Salary: 1085 USD � 1400 USD (before tax) per month, depending on qualifications, experience and hours worked � salary and benefits paid in Vietnamese Dong, tax is payable on a sliding scale, most teachers pay 10-15%
Well have a good one at apollo, hope you like street food and living in a guesthouse in Vietnam.
The pay for managers at Apollo is also disgraceful, they will tell you the following, dont think about the salary, focus on the future, what future!
Teachers make more money than managers!
Teachers and managers at apollo last about a year before they realize that they can make more money at almost every other school. |
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generalgiap
Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the facilities at ILA and Apollo, there is no doubt that ILA's facilities are at a much higher standard than Apollos. Dont beiieve me, go there yourself and check out both schools.
Furthermore, Apollo is turning into a cowboy outfit regarding its salaries.
This comes from their latest ad,
Contractual benefits of working for Apollo
� Salary: 1085 USD � 1400 USD (before tax) per month, depending on qualifications, experience and hours worked � salary and benefits paid in Vietnamese Dong, tax is payable on a sliding scale, most teachers pay 10-15%
Well have a good one at apollo, hope you like street food and living in a guesthouse in Vietnam.
The pay for managers at Apollo is also disgraceful, they will tell you the following, dont think about the salary, focus on the future, what future!
Teachers make more money than managers!
Teachers and managers at apollo last about a year before they realize that they can make more money at almost every other school. |
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generalgiap
Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the facilities at ILA and Apollo, there is no doubt that ILA's facilities are at a much higher standard than Apollos. Dont beiieve me, go there yourself and check out both schools.
Furthermore, Apollo is turning into a cowboy outfit regarding its salaries.
This comes from their latest ad,
Contractual benefits of working for Apollo
� Salary: 1085 USD � 1400 USD (before tax) per month, depending on qualifications, experience and hours worked � salary and benefits paid in Vietnamese Dong, tax is payable on a sliding scale, most teachers pay 10-15%
Well have a good one at apollo, hope you like street food and living in a guesthouse in Vietnam.
The pay for managers at Apollo is also disgraceful, they will tell you the following, dont think about the salary, focus on the future, what future!
Teachers make more money than managers!
Teachers and managers at apollo last about a year before they realize that they can make more money at almost every other school. |
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Oh My God
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| isabel wrote: |
Celta and TEFL certs are largely interchangeable and either one meets the visa requirements. You cannot learn much in a month, either way, Both certs function as gatekeepers for hiring purposes.
My objection to Celta? It seems to have an activities based approach that may be useful in an institute or kindergarten, but is just silly at a university level. Almost everyone I know with a Celta loves markers and butcher paper, board slams and other such running around nonsense. Not that the TEFL is so much better, but there is a lot less both arrogance and silliness involved.
Either one is 30 days. Choose your hell. But don't buy the propaganda that the Celta is so superior. It is an equivalent piece of paper needed for a visa. |
I 100% agree, the CELTA is after all just a super TESOL. So the question to the OP is - is the ESL industry just a temporary diversion before returning home or a career choice?
If it's temporary, why not get the most bang for your bucks? The CELTA is the most recognized and therefore would allow you the most chances for a good wage during your little adventure.
But if it's a career choice, then any ESL certification will do because it's the OJT that makes the difference AND your reputation that'll get you the best jobs.
This has been true for me but many will accuse me of being an Autodidactic and perhaps that's true. But for almost all of the best Teachers that I've known, that's also true for the specialties they've developed and are well paid for. IMHO  |
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