Job Discussion Forums

[JohnHarris]

Ah, here it comes, but I had no idea that it would come so soon. Actually, I will not press the hyperlink so sarcastically inserted in the response.

All right, I am not out of energy, but I have a lot of other work to do, including writing a lot of reports.

I cannot understand why some people have to defend things which should never be defended.

Again, if I do specify some very real and serious problems that occur and are occurring in the magic K, I will be attacked for the sake of someone's liking to attack others. There is enough of that already.

The warnings are out there: go read them. They were not written by me.

You could start by looking at the World Health Organization's statistics for selected countries. Oh, but for some countries, those statistics are unavailable. What an anomaly! Sorry for leaving out England in my first post.

[Badar Bin Bada Boom]

A lot of linguists, including tenured professors in our home countries, as well as overseas TEFLers, have vested interests at heart. A linguistics prof. I had in the States was incensed (a bit) when I suggested that the process of intellectual development--i.e., the progression from simplistic to complex thought--was universal. Naturally, to be PC, he insisted this was a culture-bound notion that had little bearing on the Middle East and was therefore insulting to "impose" upon Saudis and Emiratis. Actually he couldn't be more wrong, and his assertion was condescending to UAE nationals and Saudis, to say the least. Even the Higher Ed minister His Worshipfulness Sheikhumup's statement of philosophy for the Higher Colleges clearly states that students must be taught how to think in more complex ways.

As for many TEFLers on this board, if they enjoyed a modest job with a modest salary for two or three decades in the same place, they think of it as life-affirming and inspiring and thus we should also--or at least, if we fail to be equally inspired, we must behold the respective Middle Eastern nations in question as beyond reproach. Or, alternatively, accept the notion of complete cultural, geographical and geopolitical relativism.

No, I am not talking about any particular apologist, as they, being educated people, often remind us that no one needs to feel as they do. However, they tend to have little tolerance for people who have no tolerance for the Tragic Kingdom. As if we are all new to international residence and need lectures on cultural relativism.

[johnslat]

OK, all you defenders of the Kingdom of Humanity, let's attack!!

Is Saudi a nice place to live? Don't think you'll find too many Westerners who claim that.
Are human rights a big item there? Ditto.
Are the students, generally speaking, eager, motivated, fast learners. Tee-hee.

Nope, all that bothers me is when people try to claim their own subjective, individual responses to the Kingdom (good OR bad - though admittedly one won't find too many of the former) are the ONLY right ones.

That's balderdash.

Regards,
John

[JohnHarris]

Well, in my completely subjective and biased opinion . . .

No, that won't wash. Google the words, "esl teacher turnover rates in Saudi Arabia." I can save you time by informing you that there is almost no official information on this. I went all the way to the fourth number at the bottom of the google page, and what looked like an article on teacher retention rates turned out to be a project on students' retaining prepositions.

Now, England, Australia, Canada, and the U.S. regularly publish statistics on teacher turnover rates, and always lament them and try to change things if they are high. Hint: they are much lower than in . . .

Yes, teacher turnover rates are serious problems. That is one specific. There are others.

[johnslat]

Dear JohnHarris,

"No, that won't wash."

I see - so your subjective, individual opinion of the Kingdom really IS the ONLY possible correct one.

Saudi Arabia publishes very few (if any) statistics about anything that goes on inside the Kingdom.

People who land good jobs there tend to stay awhile. People who land not-so-good/lousy jobs there tend not to.

I had a good job there, as have others who stayed a while. You, I'm guessing, did not have a good job there, and so you probably didn't stay there very long.

There are almost certainly many more not-so-good/lousy jobs in Saudi than in most other places, but people keep applying. Why - because of the money.

The "serious problem" is when an individual has a lousy job there, and that's an individual problem.

Regards,
John

[Middle East Beast]

[posh]

[JohnHarris]

Excuse me, but you really have a complete misunderstanding of what I have written.

The turnover rates are not my personal subjective biased opinion. I was being ironic. Perhaps that was not clear.

High turnover rates have real costs, in terms of money and experience and development. They are not good, simply put, for the schools, the teachers, or the society. Do you desire to differ with me on this also? All I can say is "wow" if you do.

I cannot really comment on your "good" job or experience, for I have no statistics whatsoever about the turnover rate at your school. Perhaps it was high, or perhaps it was low. Can you tell us? Did you do a mathematical survey at your school? I did one at mine, and the rate was abnormally high.

Yes, mid east beast, what you said was correct and good.

[johnslat]

Dear JohnHarris,

"Did you do a mathematical survey at your school? I did one at mine, and the rate was abnormally high."

Abnormally high compared to what?

Strangely enough, I did not. I wonder how many other teachers in Saudi have conducted such a "survey?"

So, all I can provide is some very unscientific data - there were about forty teachers on the staff where I worked. The average yearly turnover was about three to four teachers.

I have no idea if that's high, low or average - compared to (again) what?

Regards,
John

[Badar Bin Bada Boom]

[quote="posh"][quote="Badar Bin Bada Boom"]

[johnslat]

Dear JohnHarris,

If you don't mind a suggestion - why not help other prospective Saudi teachers who might read this thread by telling where you worked (so they can avoid the place?)

I worked for the Institute of Public Administration, in Jeddah and Riyadh. The unscientific info given above was for the fifteen years I was at the Riyadh headquarters.


Regards,
John

P.S. Sorry you landed in such a lousy place to work. As noted above, such places are probably more common in Saudi than in many/most other countries (but, as also noted, people keep applying because the salaries are usually higher than could be found in many/most other countries.) However, there are at least some places where your experience would not be the norm.

[BretHarte]

We average two or three a month with about 40 teachers and staff.

[johnslat]

Dear BretHarte,

Good Lord - you lose that many a MONTH! All teachers or does that include "staff" (and are they Saudis?)
That's a heck of an attrition rate. Would it be possible for you to post where you're working? That sounds like a place most definitely to be avoided.

Regards,
John

[BretHarte]

No Saudis, but it's teachers, staff and other foreign staff. I can post after our Christmas break. Expectations are we'll lose double digits from one of the largest midnight runs in KSA history.

[johnslat]

Dear BretHarte,

I guess many/most/all of the leaving teachers are on "business visas," right
(at least the ones who disappear during "non-break" times) since they don't need exit visas?

One more question - do you know if any/many teachers are "direct hires" or did they get the jobs through a "recruiter/contractor?"

Regards,
John