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artemisia
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Location: the world
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 Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Tomwaits, if you�ve spent any amount of time on this forum you�ll know all this is par for the course! What you were looking for could exist but will always be sabotaged. It�s possible to have balanced individual posts � there are plenty of available posters - but there�s no way there could be a whole thread of such posts.
| denise wrote: |
| In my current job, I certainly don't hear the kind of anti-TEFL rants that creep up at Dave's from time to time |
I don�t either - I think it�s just a forum thing. A Good Story: your comments on reincarnations were illuminating! I know this is simply unimaginable to some but I took on further education in language teaching for professional development! I considered the money to be well spent in terms of improving knowledge and practice � an end in itself.
Good luck with your CELTA. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
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| True sir, but the person needs to do some RESEARCH ahead of time to make sure the investment will be worth it. For example, a person gets a bachelor degree ($30,000 DOLLARS) and then the CELTA in Mexico City ($1,700 DOLLARS). That's a total of 31,700 DOLLARS. It would only be worth it if on the other end, there i sa NICE, REWARDING salary waiting for the TEFLer. IF, however, the salary isn't much better after having gone into MAJOR DEBT, TIME, AND EFFORT to get those "qualifications", they simply are not worth it nor could one afford it. |
| Quote: |
| That's why it is so CRITICAL for the person thinking about doing it to make sure the salaries will be MUCH BETTER than they are at the entry-level or it won't be worth the debt, time, and effort. |
Truest words ever spoken on Dave's. But a concept that a lot of people seem to have trouble comprehending.
Let me add, it is not only the cost of the education that one needs to earn back ($31,700 in this example). If you are going to school full-time, or even part-time, for that matter, there are lost wages to be considered. If you spend a year full-time on campus doing an MA, then how much might you have earned that year if you'd remained in the workforce? $30,000? $45,000? Got to figure that number into your calculations, too. If you go part-time, how much might you have made with a second job in those hours? Gotta figure that in.
It's going to take a long time to recoup all those lost earnings and the tuition. It is VERY, VERY HARD to come out ahead on the MATESOL unless you plan to spend several years in the Middle East. Not my idea of a good time. |
In the Mexico City case I mentioned above, there was no loss of income. Online courses done during free time and evening classes a few times per year. The immediate pay raise as I said paid for the degree in one year. Every year after is gravy...
Now, if you are US-based and become a full time student, then yes your numbers begin to make some sense. You factor in the much higher cost of living to your numbers as well (unless you live with mom and pop of course). You'd be far better off doing such a thing abroad.
The Middle East and Mexico have been mentioned...curious as to what the professional development ladder offers in other parts of the world. Europe, Spiral? China, Japan, Korea? |
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AGoodStory
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
| . . . That has been noted by all. . . |
Oh, darn! You Mexico members are always way ahead of me!
| Quote: |
Hi,
Would be good to hear about some success stories where people are enjoying themselves and are glad they made the decision to work in TEFL.
I'm in my late forties and about to start my CELTA. Would be good to hear from some other late starters.
Thanks in advance. |
So, as the OP asked, any other stories from late starters out there?
ETA: Oops! I didn't mean to ignore Guy's very interesting post; it just wasn't there when I started mine.  |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| The Middle East and Mexico have been mentioned...curious as to what the professional development ladder offers in other parts of the world. Europe, Spiral? China, Japan, Korea? |
In Asia there is certainly a "ladder" as well as those who are forever stuck at the bottom of said ladder.
China is currently the broadest in terms of ranges of remuneration packages for those with credentials. Entry level jobs start at 3000rmb (about $500) and top end jobs in decent schools (k-12) top out at about 15000 rmb ($2400) with the average EFL salary for qualified individuals coming in at about 10000 rmb ($1500) . When the costs of living are factored in that leaves a decent qualify of living and savings in the range of $800/mo.
University jobs pay nice when calculated per hour but the hours are low so the net jingle at the end of the day is much less than your k-12 or language academy worker makes. They do however leave the teacher plenty of room for "extras" to substantially increase the earnings potential.
Korea - entry level jobs pay well ($1800-2000) + a decent benefits package (housing, flights, severance, etc) and have a savings potential of $1000/mo based on just the "job" with no "extra work". If you want more specifics, due to forum rules, you will have to go to the Korea forums.
Japan pays in the range of 200k-300k yen ($2500-4000) but the cost of living eats away most of that leaving a small savings potential and large start-up costs (on the order of $3000-5000). The market is also very tight and although there is work in the language academies the requirements for university positions are high (related terminal degree + publications).
Taiwan. - decent work is getting hard to find. K-12 work (government or private school) requires home country certification as a teacher. University jobs are difficult to land and require extensive post grad qualifications. The upside is that the remuneration packages are also pretty good (88k TWD ($3000) + housing, flight, medical, etc) with a savings potential in the range of US$15k/year.
The downside is that for the rest of the industry for those who don't qualify for the higher end of the ladder means working (often as hourly workers) for buxibans (academies) with wages in the 30-50k twd per month and no benefits. In many cases it also means no proper visa, regular flights to HK to renew your visa and working for multiple employers to make ends meet.
Thailand is a mixed bag. For those with no qualifications other than a TEFL you can expect to find nothing but illegal work (no visa or work permit) to be bottom barrel, subsistence level, with no benefits; 15k THB/mo ($500).
If you have a degree and a TEFL there is plenty of entry level work at the 35k level ($1100). You won't save anything but you can live comfortably.
If you have further qualifications (home country teachers license) or continue your professional development then there are jobs in the 60-130k THB/mo + benefits ($1900-4100). You can live very well and save from $1000-3000/month at this level.
Vietnam - IF you have a degree and TEFL then jobs in the $2000 range are there. The cost of living is similar to that in Thailand and the savings are again in the range of $1000+ per month.
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Tttompatz,
I would raise a quibble with your assessment of China. I think you're drawing too close a connection, for China, between qualifications and pay. I don't see much of a ladder in China. A bachelor's degree is the main credential there. Beyond that, pay relates more closely to your personal talents and to the connections you can form than to academic credentials. The entrepreneurial person with a big fat B.A. in history will earn more than the bookish person with the MATESOL. |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
Tttompatz,
I would raise a quibble with your assessment of China. I think you're drawing too close a connection, for China, between qualifications and pay. I don't see much of a ladder in China. A bachelor's degree is the main credential there. Beyond that, pay relates more closely to your personal talents and to the connections you can form than to academic credentials. The entrepreneurial person with a big fat B.A. in history will earn more than the bookish person with the MATESOL. |
Actually, I was looking at top end jobs being those in "proper" international schools in places like Shanghai and Beijing for those who have gone back to get "real" teaching qualifications to move beyond EFL in the language academies.
AND, yes, an entrepreneurial soul with a BA and some wherewithal can do as well or better but you are not likely to do it with a high school diploma and a 60 hour TEFL cert. (where 3000 rmb/mo and regular runs to Hong Kong will be the order of the day).
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:48 am Post subject: |
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In my opinion, international schools are a different ball game, without a lot in common with EFL. One can go back and get a teaching certificate and teach a subject in an international school. But I wouldn't call that "upgrading" your credentials in the sense of moving up the EFL ladder. It is more like a career changing. Additionally, if discussing international schools, I think you're way low with the salaries you mentioned.
Granted, there is a bit of overlap, because some EFL/ESL teachers do get work in international schools. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| tttompatz wrote: |
| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
Tttompatz,
I would raise a quibble with your assessment of China. I think you're drawing too close a connection, for China, between qualifications and pay. I don't see much of a ladder in China. A bachelor's degree is the main credential there. Beyond that, pay relates more closely to your personal talents and to the connections you can form than to academic credentials. The entrepreneurial person with a big fat B.A. in history will earn more than the bookish person with the MATESOL. |
Actually, I was looking at top end jobs being those in "proper" international schools in places like Shanghai and Beijing for those who have gone back to get "real" teaching qualifications to move beyond EFL in the language academies.
AND, yes, an entrepreneurial soul with a BA and some wherewithal can do as well or better but you are not likely to do it with a high school diploma and a 60 hour TEFL cert. (where 3000 rmb/mo and regular runs to Hong Kong will be the order of the day).
. |
Thanks for the detailed post on earnings in the region...we've all come to expect such helpful posts from you. But if you'll let me point out, my question was about the availability of professional development while abroad. What kind of opportunities do schools in your region provide to earn a master's or other qualification?
SahanRiddhi sees little connection between teaching English as EFL and teaching English as a subject. Any difference in Asia? |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
In my opinion, international schools are a different ball game, without a lot in common with EFL. One can go back and get a teaching certificate and teach a subject in an international school. But I wouldn't call that "upgrading" your credentials in the sense of moving up the EFL ladder. It is more like a career changing. Additionally, if discussing international schools, I think you're way low with the salaries you mentioned.
Granted, there is a bit of overlap, because some EFL/ESL teachers do get work in international schools. |
But isn't going back and getting / upgrading qualifications part of the "ladder"?
People start with a degree and TEFL cert.
They go abroad for a gap year and decide that teaching is what they want to do and turn it into a career.
They return and up grade; DELTA, MATESOL, B.Ed, PGCE, PGDE, QTS.
The route and qualifications depend on what they want to do/teach (DOS, EFL, subjects, etc), where they want to teach (K-12, language academy, university), and who (ages) they want to teach.
There are the others who use it as a gap year between graduation and starting their intended career. They do their year or two abroad and leave. The ladder is not relevant to them. They do their time at entry level and they are gone. The nature of what they do and the part of the industry they work in is transient.
There are those who start off as a gap year or came in without any credentials beyond the TEFL cert., get involved or comfortable and make it a job without upgrading. They get get busy with life (G/F, wife, kids, etc) and never upgrade their skills or credentials. They are the ones who are trapped after a few years. Can't move up, can't (for whatever reason) return home, and can't stay. They missed the ladder or got stuck on the bottom rung. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| Ditto on money isn't everything...quality of life is measured in many different ways. |
I agree, but you often see this.
1. People in their home country with a "proper" job, benefits, mortgage, etc looking to "get away from it all and TEFL"
2. TEFLers looking to go back home and get a "proper" job.
3. TEFLers making lots of money (often in the ME) looking to leave.
4. TEFLers making little money (LA or SE Asia), but having a decent lifestyle, looking to make more money.
I'm not saying these are all the cases or that everyone's unhappy. Just saying that I've often seen (and am guilty of doing myself) the whole, the grass is always greener on the other side thing.
Though I've been told that the answer is to water your lawn. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:12 am Post subject: |
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To those thinking Japan is one of those places where you can make a lot of money today:
Things have changed considerably since the Bubble days. Even in the last 4-5 years, salaries have gone down. What used to be a standard 250,000 yen/month for starting salary has changed. You can expect anywhere from 180,000 to 270,000, and I would estimate that the average now is closer to 220,000. Moreover, a lot of employers here in the land of the rising sun are copping out on providing copayments into pension/health plans, and this is being ignored by the government. Take heed.
tomwaits,
I started out over a decade ago by changing careers at 40 and coming to Japan with a TESL certificate to supplement my unrelated master of science degree. I moved from conversation school to private high school to university. I have a rare tenured uni position now, a Japanese wife and kid, and permanent resident status. I do a little proofreading/copyediting on the side for extra pay. If you look at all that as a success, so be it. I'm happy.
Take further heed:
The U.S. signed an agreement with Japan in 2005 so that Americans living here can get retirement payments from both countries as long as their total contributions are sufficient. I would expect that yours are by now. If you get PR, you can backdate your pension arrangement 20 years so that you don't have to put into it for the usual 25 years in order to start collecting here. Of course, you will only get from Japan what is related to how much you put into it, so that even if you collect early you may not collect as much as someone who put in for the full 25.
It is becoming harder for newbies and veterans to land decent-paying jobs in Japan. As was mentioned in this thread, it makes sense to get better and better qualifications if you want to move up the financial ladder, but you will also face steep competition here. Think long and hard if you want to start your own business! It's not as easy as some make it out to be. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| tttompatz wrote: |
| [China is currently the broadest in terms of ranges of remuneration packages for those with credentials. Entry level jobs start at 3000rmb (about $500) and top end jobs in decent schools (k-12) top out at about 15000 rmb ($2400) with the average EFL salary for qualified individuals coming in at about 10000 rmb ($1500) . When the costs of living are factored in that leaves a decent qualify of living and savings in the range of $800/mo. |
I've applied for a handful of jobs TEFLing, not intl schools, that pay from 2000 to 4500 usd a month, plus housing. Tom's right. They're out there, if you have the exp, quals, and know where to look. 
The thing that makes me want to go back to China is the fact that I could do IELTS a couple times a month and make some extra cash. I can't do that where I am here. But the thought of moving all my stuff makes me want to stay another couple years where I am. I'm not even looking forward to moving house within the same country next year, let along moving countries.
| EFLeducator wrote: |
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| I have been in TEFL for 7 years. I am now pretty much done with it. |
Same here Professor. In Latin America there is not REAL money in it. Oh, and it is NOT good for the soul if a person is living a laidback lifestyle yet has to always worry about how they are going to pay rent and/or eat. |
I agree, as far as Peru goes. I upped my qualifications, did the whole MA thing, workshops, conferences, networking, publications, etc. When I left two years ago, I was making double what I started at 6 years before. That's something, right? But I couldn't move up. I was at the top paying uni in the city, doing privates, and consulting. Basically working a ton but I had hit the glass ceiling. Now where I am, I'm making 3 times the salary I left in Peru. It's all about location, location, location.
| EFLeducator wrote: |
| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| I think the GF paid just under 5000 us for her first MS (the school paid the other half) and her MS in education administration will come in about the same. |
She paid just under 5,000 DOLLARS for her first MS? The school paid the other half? So the school paid $15,000 DOLLARS for her MS? A Masters degree from ANY university in the U.S. is going to cost AT LEAST $18,000 to $30,000 DOLLARS. That would mean her school had to pay the balance after the $5,000. |
I have to disagree with you here. YOu can get an MA for that much. First, gotta look outside the US for MA degrees. Australia, the UK, are good places to start. Second, some employers give you a research allowance. Mine doesn't. Ok, about $40 a year to cover the conference, but others give decent amounts.
My second MA cost me about 8000 usd (or was it 10K? too many exchange rates to worry about), had my school paid half, I could also have gotten it for the same price Guy's girlfriend paid. How did I do it? VIva transfer credits and work experience! Lots of paperwork, but it saves time and money.
My BA cost $6K. Private school, scholarships, grants, work study. You'd be surprised how lazy people are when it comes to applying for scholarships. Sure, $800 here or $500 there isn't much, but it adds up. Espeically if the university gives you a scholarship for half the tuition. One year I ended up winning all the scholarships I applied for. When there's a will there's a way. My brothers and sister went to public schools. My sister got a full ride, my brothers have abotu 5 figures worth of debt. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:53 am Post subject: Re: ..anyone out there enjoying themselves? |
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| tomwaits wrote: |
Hi,
Would be good to hear about some success stories where people are enjoying themselves and are glad they made the decision to work in TEFL.
I'm in my late forties and about to start my CELTA. Would be good to hear from some other late starters.
Thanks in advance. |
I'm not a late starter, Tomwaits, but take your point about little positive balance on the forum, so I'd like to throw in my tuppence hap'worth.
Am having the time of my life. Hasn't always been cushy - the usual ups and downs. But I remember all my friends and relatives telling me I was mad to get into this area when there was so much to lose at home, e.g. pensions, insurance, steady job, mortgage re-payments etc. I have to admit that that did weigh upon my mind for a spell. However, in light of recent economic events it seems I was not so mad after all, as most of those naysayers were soon in dire straits themselves with little to fall back on.
As for me, I teach smart and interesting people whose lives I actually do enrich in a very small but significant way. I live in an exciting city brimming with interest for me, have a flexible job where I can make as much money or have as much free time as I want. I have proximity to some great holiday destinations in Europe, almost endless reserves of vodka, endless eye-candy on the metro, some of the world's greatest cultural centres on my doorstep, la la la.... I'll stop now or I'll only provoke jealousy from the other non-party members on the forum.
As I said, it isn't always such a rosy picture. Plenty of annoyances to go round too. However, I think TEFL is like any other type of crisis, heh heh: it will bring out the true colours of those in it. Those who constantly moan and can see nothing of value while pursuing their TEFL jobs and lifestyles, are more than likely the sort who moan and see nothing of value at home either.
TEFL is what you make of it. Most of the nightmare stories have more than a grain of truth to them, so it is well worth bearing in mind some of the more obvious warnings. However, there are as many, I'd guess, if not more, happy experiences out there too. So, it all depends on a dash of good luck, but even more personal resolve to make a go of it. It can be done. As far as I am concerned, I've done it. And I'm not alone, There are many of us out there, enjoying life to the last drop, hic!
Three cheers for Raymond Murphy! Ura! Ura! Ura! |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Guy wrote:
| Quote: |
| The Middle East and Mexico have been mentioned...curious as to what the professional development ladder offers in other parts of the world. Europe, Spiral? |
So far as I am aware, most universities and public schools will support continuing education financially in whole or part. Our university typically paid for half of a CELTA, for example, and likewise half of an MA or a doctorate. I expect that such support varies by institution, but this is a part of the world where higher education is considered the normal standard for most of the population, with many more degree holders on the regular job market than in the US. Earning that MA makes a significant difference in terms of pay scale and benefits, as does a doctorate.
I have sometimes heard of private language schools partially sponsoring a CELTA or equivalent course as well.
AGoodStory, Artemesia, TeacherinRome, and Sasha could also shed more light on the situation in Europe for continuing professional develpment - this is obviously just my own experience.
And, ditto on the 'cheers for Raymond Murphy' motion, by the way  |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:24 am Post subject: |
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In Russia, as far as I know, there really isn't too much in the way of financial help. In the MacSchools, there is a sort of half-hearted offer to cover half of the fees for the DELTA, but this signs you up for a couple of years of contract work in return. Simply not worth it - you'll lose more staying with low-payers over the longer term than paying all costs for the DELTA and striking out on your own.
Universities may offer the same sort of thing, but there again the salaries are so pitifully low that it is not worth even thinking about.
Yet, countless local teachers, from all over Russia and the near abroad are happy to pay out their hard-earned cash on further qualifications, whether it is just TKT or indeed a full Masters, with little or no support from thier institutions. I really have to wonder why they have no problem with bettering themselves and others, anglophones, seem to have rather a big issue with it... |
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