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Nolan Chance
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 45
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Nolan Chance wrote: |
The causes are complex, but at root I think Bernard Lewis' explanation of the whole malaise afflicting the Islamic world is a pretty good starting point.
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Nolan Chance,
While Bernard Lewis enjoys an enviable reputation... Professor Lewis ...seems, in my opinion, much too inclined to reduce extremely complex issues and entities (e.g identity, culture) to generalized stereotypes.
Regards,
John |
If posters on here weren't so genteel, with all these salutations,I'd be tempted to ask precisely which part of 'starting point' you didn't understand. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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My opinion of Bernard Lewis is that he is only slightly above the fiction writer who pretends to write sociology named Raphael Patai. The fact that the US military and government uses these two as their knowledge base on the Middle East explains the total ignorance shown in US policies in the last 20 years. Said's works are definitely an improvement.
Karen Armstrong's books are not quite the same topic as the two above, but I've got most of her books on my shelves. She is not only knowledgeable on her topic, but a lovely woman in "real life." In fact, a fellow student in the MA program with me at AUC sent her an email discussing some topics in her book on religious fundamentalism, and on his next trip through London, they met for lunch to discuss it further.
VS
(Mr Chance... my take on Lewis as a 'starting point' is that it isn't good to start with too much simplistic misinformation...) |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Nolan Chance,
It's not the phrase "starting point" that bothers me; it's the modifier "good." I'm going to assume you understand that word.
By the way, I don't think "gentility," "politeness," "civility" or "courtesy" are ever amiss - until an individual demonstrates that they're being wasted on him/her.
When that happens, I am, I assure you, quite capable of being "ungenteel."
Regards,
John |
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Nolan Chance
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Nolan Chance wrote: |
The causes are complex, but at root I think Bernard Lewis' explanation of the whole malaise afflicting the Islamic world is a pretty good starting point. |
| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Nolan Chance,
It's not the phrase "starting point" that bothers me; it's the modifier "good." I'm going to assume you understand that word.
... |
So we've agreed then that Bernard Lewis is a 'starting point'. His being that doesn't' bother' you. But you don't feel he is a 'good' starting point. It's good to see that you feel that words matter. In that case perhaps you like to look at what my modifier actually was:not 'good' but 'pretty good.' This is an English word which has different meanings. In this instance it means 'fairly' or somewhat'.
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Nolan Chance,
If I may borrow your "pretty," I'd change the sentence thusly:
I think Bernard Lewis' explanation of the whole malaise afflicting the Islamic world is a pretty bad starting point.
It's not the "pretty" that bothers me; it's the "good."
Regards,
John |
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moonpie
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:18 pm Post subject: Lewis |
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One of the things I like in an author is honesty. Lewis may have been a bit shallow, but he hit the nail dead on by stating that the West has the ability to focus on an problem dispassionately and the "Islamic Civilization" (sic) has the stubborn inability to focus on the very things that plague them. I can think of the very high levels of double first cousin marriages, the many genetic diseases that plague the children of my friends, child brides of 12 years and even younger, the dehumanizing of half of the total population among other things that come to mind. For the most part, these problems are the norm here and not the exception.
moon |
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Nolan Chance
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
...
I think Bernard Lewis' explanation of the whole malaise afflicting the Islamic world is a pretty bad starting point.
... |
| Bernard Lewis wrote: |
[ T]he blame game�the Turks, the Mongols, the imperialists,
the Jews, the Americans�continues, and shows little sign of
abating. For the governments, at once oppressive and ineffectual, that
rule much of the Middle East, this game serves a useful, indeed an
essential purpose�to explain the poverty that they have failed to alleviate
and to justify the tyranny that they have intensified. In this
way they seek to deflect the mounting anger of their unhappy subjects
against other, outer targets.
But for growing numbers of Middle Easterners it is giving way to a
more self-critical approach. The question �Who did this to us?� has
led only to neurotic fantasies and conspiracy theories. The other question
��What did we do wrong?��has led naturally to a second question:
�How do we put it right?� In that question, and in the various
answers that are being found, lie the best hopes for the future.
What went wrong? page 167
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What's wrong with that, John? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Nolan Chance,
And what answer does Dr. Lewis give to the question/title: What Went Wrong?
And how's that "how do we put it right" going?
But I don't think I stated or even implied that every word that Dr. Lewis has written has been incorrect. Here's a good example, however, of such an error:
�In the mountains of Afghanistan, which the Soviets had conquered and had been trying to rule, the Taliban were able to inflict one defeat after another on the Soviet forces, eventually driving the Red Army out of the country to defeat and collapse.�
http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2006&month=09
September 2006: Freedom and Justice in Islam
Bernard Lewis: The Hillsdale Lecture
That's rather an amazing statement since the Red Army left Afghanistan in 1989 and the Taliban weren't even in existence until later:
"The Taliban had humble beginnings. After Soviet forces departed Afghanistan in 1989 and the government Moscow previously installed collapsed three years later, a coalition of tribal-based mujahidin assumed control of the country. The coalition quickly fell apart and its factions began a civil war that ravaged the land. Into this chaos stepped the Taliban, consisting largely of young students from the madrassahs (religious schools) in neighboring Pakistan and led by Islamic teachers headed by Mullah Mohammed Omar. Rooted in the southern Pashtun tribe (about 40 percent of the population), the Taliban in 1994 moved northward, determined to bring order to Afghanistan and created a pure Islamic state based on an extremely strict reading of the Koran. It captured Kabul on Sept. 26, 1996."
http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/afghanistan-disintegrates-pr.html
"Formed in 1994, the Taliban began with only a few followers, mostly religious students who fought with the Mujahideen in the war against the Soviets and who were schooled in Islamic seminaries (madrasahs) in Pakistan. These students, or seekers, as they are referred to in the documents, wanted to rid Afghanistan of the instability, violence, and warlordism that had been plaguing the country since the defeat and withdrawal of the Soviets in 1989."
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB97/index.htm
However, I imagine that the Taliban would be quite glad to take the retroactive credit.
And here's the last sentence of that speech: �Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.�
Ah yes - exporting "freedom" has such a great track-record. Love those "either . . . or" dichotomies. Here's another from someone who apparently took that last line to heart:
"You're either with us or against us" George W. Bush
Shall we cherry-pick some more?
Regards,
John |
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Nolan Chance
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
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...I don't think I stated or even implied that every word that Dr. Lewis has written has been incorrect. Here's a good example, however, of such an error:
�In the mountains of Afghanistan, which the Soviets had conquered and had been trying to rule, the Taliban were able to inflict one defeat after another on the Soviet forces, eventually driving the Red Army out of the country to defeat and collapse.�
http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2006&month=09
September 2006: Freedom and Justice in Islam
Bernard Lewis: The Hillsdale Lecture
That's rather an amazing statement since the Red Army left Afghanistan in 1989 and the Taliban weren't even in existence until later:
...I imagine that the Taliban would be quite glad to take the retroactive credit.
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I think we can be certain that there is more likelihood of this apparent 'error' being the result of an error in either transcription or adaptation than that a Professor Emeritus at Princeton does not know his dates. Don't you think it's probable that Professor Lewis said something along the lines of: " forces that would eventually emerge as the Taliban were able to inflict one defeat after another on the Soviet forces."?
| johnslat wrote: |
And here's the last sentence of that speech: �Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.�
Ah yes - exporting "freedom" has such a great track-record. Love those "either . . . or" dichotomies. Here's another from someone who apparently took that last line to heart:
"You're either with us or against us" George W. Bush
Shall we cherry-pick some more?
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Now we are into a whole different ball game. We've gone from my suggestion that Bernard Lewis' 'What Went Wrong?' might be a suitable introduction to current problems in the M.E. to a mini rant against Bernard Lewis and against American foreign policy and George Dubya! I think this can only happen in the Middle East. Have a good a day. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Lewis |
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| moonpie wrote: |
| I can think of the very high levels of double first cousin marriages, the many genetic diseases that plague the children of my friends, child brides of 12 years and even younger, the dehumanizing of half of the total population among other things that come to mind. For the most part, these problems are the norm here and not the exception. |
I would absolutely disagree with that statement. It is not that long ago that the wealthy of the west stopped marrying their cousins to keep the money in the family... which is the same idea that still survived up until the time I arrived in Oman in the late 80's.
But when I came back to Oman ten years later, it was my students who told me about the dangers of marrying first cousins... and I suspect that they are also lecturing their parents about it... as is the government who has to pay the medical bills. They even talked of the necessity of having fewer children. Of course, these were Muscatis... and the rural areas will change more slowly... as everywhere.
Child brides are now rare in Oman because of mandated education and most women are not secluded or facially veiled... drive cars... and many work. It is slowly slowly... but rapid change is terribly destructive to a society. I give credit to the Sultan for gradually bringing girls into the schools to the point where now they are the majority in the university. It is all about education. The village kids in SQU will be carrying these ideas back home.
If one looks at the Oman of 1972 and the Oman of 2012, it is an example of not only the shallowness of Lewis' broad brush, but his inaccuracy.
VS |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Dear Nolan Chance,
"I think we can be certain that there is more likelihood of this apparent 'error' being the result of an error in either transcription or adaptation than that a Professor Emeritus at Princeton does not know his dates. Don't you think it's probable that Professor Lewis said something along the lines of: " forces that would eventually emerge as the Taliban were able to inflict one defeat after another on the Soviet forces."?
Nope - but if it were what you say, don't you think, over the past six years, the good Doctor would have made some attempt to correct it?
"Now we are into a whole different ball game. We've gone from my suggestion that Bernard Lewis' 'What Went Wrong?' might be a suitable introduction to current problems in the M.E. to a mini rant against Bernard Lewis and against American foreign policy and George Dubya! I think this can only happen in the Middle East. Have a good a day."
Same ball game - different inning. You posted an example of why you think Dr. Lewis is a "pretty good starting point." I posted an example of why I think he's a pretty bad starting point.
A mini rant? It would seem we have different notions of what constitutes a rant, mini or otherwise. But I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the issue.
Have a nice night. 
Regards,
John |
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Nolan Chance
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Lewis |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| moonpie wrote: |
| I can think of the very high levels of double first cousin marriages, the many genetic diseases that plague the children of my friends, child brides of 12 years and even younger, the dehumanizing of half of the total population among other things that come to mind. For the most part, these problems are the norm here and not the exception. |
I would absolutely disagree with that statement. It is not that long ago that the wealthy of the west stopped marrying their cousins to keep the money in the family... which is the same idea that still survived up until the time I arrived in Oman in the late 80's.
But when I came back to Oman ten years later, it was my students who told me about the dangers of marrying first cousins... and I suspect that they are also lecturing their parents about it... as is the government who has to pay the medical bills. They even talked of the necessity of having fewer children. Of course, these were Muscatis... and the rural areas will change more slowly... as everywhere.
Child brides are now rare in Oman because of mandated education and most women are not secluded or facially veiled... drive cars... and many work. It is slowly slowly... but rapid change is terribly destructive to a society. I give credit to the Sultan for gradually bringing girls into the schools to the point where now they are the majority in the university. It is all about education. The village kids in SQU will be carrying these ideas back home.
If one looks at the Oman of 1972 and the Oman of 2012, it is an example of not only the shallowness of Lewis' broad brush, but his inaccuracy.
VS |
This is a very good post. In fact, Oman is a good example of a Middle Eastern country that has significant progress in its attitudes to women. But you do Bernard Lewis an undeserved injury when you link Moonpie's inflammatory exaggerations with his name, as if Moonpie is quoting from Lewis. I think perhaps you need to go back and read Lewis' work again. |
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Nolan Chance
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Nolan Chance,
"I think we can be certain that there is more likelihood of this apparent 'error' being the result of an error in either transcription or adaptation than that a Professor Emeritus at Princeton does not know his dates. Don't you think it's probable that Professor Lewis said something along the lines of: " forces that would eventually emerge as the Taliban were able to inflict one defeat after another on the Soviet forces."?
Nope - but if it were what you say, don't you think, over the past six years, the good Doctor would have made some attempt to correct it?
"Now we are into a whole different ball game. We've gone from my suggestion that Bernard Lewis' 'What Went Wrong?' might be a suitable introduction to current problems in the M.E. to a mini rant against Bernard Lewis and against American foreign policy and George Dubya! I think this can only happen in the Middle East. Have a good a day."
Same ball game - different inning. You posted an example of why you think Dr. Lewis is a "pretty good starting point." I posted an example of why I think he's a pretty bad starting point.
A mini rant? It would seem we have different notions of what constitutes a rant, mini or otherwise. But I suppose that's easier than actually addressing the issue.
Have a nice night.
Regards,
John |
Okay, John, I think everyone's got the message that you don't like Bernard Lewis.
But as to addressing issues, I think the onus is on you to establish what's wrong with Lewis' analysis ,rather than picking on an obvious transcription confusion, which if it were otherwise would suggest that a major western scholar was as ignorant as the unfortunates that Moonpea decided to pick on when he began this thread. |
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Nolan Chance
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Lewis |
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| Nolan Chance wrote: |
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| moonpie wrote: |
| I can think of the very high levels of double first cousin marriages, the many genetic diseases that plague the children of my friends, child brides of 12 years and even younger, the dehumanizing of half of the total population among other things that come to mind. For the most part, these problems are the norm here and not the exception. |
I would absolutely disagree with that statement. It is not that long ago that the wealthy of the west stopped marrying their cousins to keep the money in the family... which is the same idea that still survived up until the time I arrived in Oman in the late 80's.
But when I came back to Oman ten years later, it was my students who told me about the dangers of marrying first cousins... and I suspect that they are also lecturing their parents about it... as is the government who has to pay the medical bills. They even talked of the necessity of having fewer children. Of course, these were Muscatis... and the rural areas will change more slowly... as everywhere.
Child brides are now rare in Oman because of mandated education and most women are not secluded or facially veiled... drive cars... and many work. It is slowly slowly... but rapid change is terribly destructive to a society. I give credit to the Sultan for gradually bringing girls into the schools to the point where now they are the majority in the university. It is all about education. The village kids in SQU will be carrying these ideas back home.
If one looks at the Oman of 1972 and the Oman of 2012, it is an example of not only the shallowness of Lewis' broad brush, but his inaccuracy.
VS |
This is a very good post. In fact, Oman is a good example of a Middle Eastern country that has made significant progress in its attitudes to women. But you do Bernard Lewis an undeserved injury when you link Moonpie's inflammatory exaggerations with Lewis' name, as if Moonpie is quoting from Lewis. I think perhaps you need to go back and read Lewis' work again. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Lewis |
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| Nolan Chance wrote: |
| But you do Bernard Lewis an undeserved injury when you link Moonpie's inflammatory exaggerations with his name, as if Moonpie is quoting from Lewis. I think perhaps you need to go back and read Lewis' work again. |
I respectfully disagree and share John's low opinion of Lewis. Spare me from having to re-read his stuff. To me it is a matter of shame that we give him the veneer of professorial authority mainly because he confirms the prejudices of those in power intellectually, or perhaps I should say "intellectually," in the US.
VS |
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