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Tretyakovskii
Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 462
Location: Cancun, Mexico
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 Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| People are just telling you where you can expect to start, not where you can end up. Many posters to this forum make considerably more, and manage to live the Mexican middle class existence, with house and car, some travel and meals out. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I'd question that 60%, when supposedly 50% are below the breadline.
I think you are correct about $700USD being a median. I often see ads for supposed "managers" for less than $10000MXN. But also, there are a lot (and I mean a lot!) of security guards, clerks, shop workers, etc earning between $4000-$5000.
Actually, what a TEFLer is a realatively good salary, I think the problem comes from comparing one's worth here to that back home.
(Edited because someone got there before me!)
Last edited by Phil_K on Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:14 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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MotherF
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah,
I don't know where you are getting those figures boomer. 20,000 k would be living nice and certainly not 60% of the country are middle class by a US impression of what middle class means.
Keep in mind that costs and wages around the country, vary a lot. Much like in the US. So if check if figures are just for Mexico City or if they are a national average. |
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boomerexpat
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
Posts: 135
Location: Mexico
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mejms wrote: |
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60% of Mexicans are middle class supposedly.
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Where did you get that number?
I've seen several reports that list those living below the poverty line at 40%.
10 Businessmen hold 10% of the country GDP according to US reports.
Carlos Slim alone accounts for 6%.
The middle class has grown over the years but 60%?
An average salary is $6,000 - $7,000 pesos per month, which is working class.
$10,000 is considered low middle class.
$15,000 - $25,000 is roughly considered average middle class. |
NY Times for one as a source on Mex middle - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/opinion/sunday/on-the-middle-class-lessons-from-latin-america.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
So, if 10K is low middle class and 7000 is starting TEFL then starting TEFL is not middle class, especially not average middle class. Wouldn't Mexican working class be closer to the working poor in the US? Not rhetorical because I don't know for sure but that would be my assumption.
And if you can work up to 10K within first year (unless get a good job in uni) then you can work up in first year to low middle class which is why I've tried to do the numbers in DF and it seems confusing but I trust all of you know what you write about since I don't live there.
On the other hand, I can see why I've been told that many people working EFL have other sources of income or savings. Fortunately, I'm in that mix but would still like to breakeven.
40% poor does seem right and I think I've read that before too. |
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MotherF
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I started a new thread in the off-topic forum to follow up on this idea of middleclassness. |
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boomerexpat
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
Posts: 135
Location: Mexico
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| MotherF wrote: |
Don't you think Mexican-Americans living in the US, need to justify to themselves that their struggles to immigrate have been worth it? This could be conscious or subconscious. But the Mexicans in the US that I've talked to, appear to have this overwelming need to justify to me specifically (an American who has chosen to live in Mexico for 14 years. I don't straight out question their choice, but I represent the possibility that their choice might not be the best one.) That all aspects of life are truely better in the US.
And as Tret said, I find that about 1/3 of the foriegners who attempt to live in Mexico, end up leaving with a negative impression. Another 1/3 is neutral and the remaining 1/3 loves life in Mexico. The problem is it seems to be impossible to no for certain which third you will be until you give it a try. |
I just found it odd that the Mex-Americans I met were so uniformly negative. I was originally thinking of Mexico but ended up in Asia partly because of the difference I noted between how the two big immigrant blocks in the SF Bay Area (Chinese and Mexican) felt about their ancestral homeland compatriots.
The Mexicans were negative as I mentioned. The Chinese felt the opposite. Most Chinese I met felt there were two ways to do something: the Chinese and the wrong way. They inevitably preferred to do business with Chinese and an increasing number of their college ed kids were heading back to the mother country to make their fortune.
The only group I found more negative on their or their parents homeland was Iranians. Every Iranian I met hated doing business with other Iranians. Even one who hated Israel with such a passion that he dreamed, he claimed, of seeing "Jewish blood running in the street" preferred to deal with Jews in business than Iranians because he felt he could trust the Jews but not the Iranians.
On the other hand, I've always been more attracted to Latin culture than Chinese. Someways when I think of Mexico I think of Orson Welles' character in The Third Man: "in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." |
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BadBeagleBad
Joined: 23 Aug 2010
Posts: 1186
Location: 24.18105,-103.25185
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| boomerexpat wrote: |
So, if 10K is low middle class and 7000 is starting TEFL then starting TEFL is not middle class, especially not average middle class. Wouldn't Mexican working class be closer to the working poor in the US? Not rhetorical because I don't know for sure but that would be my assumption.
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Not really because benefits required by law are superior to those required in the US. For example, all employees who work more than 19 hours a week must be enrolled in government health care. The vast majority of jobs also offer a plan by which you can buy a house or apartment, even with very low income. (One of my brothers in law bought a small Infonovit house many years ago with a payment of $200 pesos per month, at a time when his income was around $10,000 per month.) So there is some basic security for a segment of the population who would be doing menial jobs in the US and likely have no benefits at all. Of course, there is also a segment of the population who have no papers, no Birth Certificate, no schooling, etc who live by their wits, or by doing housework, or having some type of small business. Some of these people will get jobs and get paid in cash because without proper paperwork they can't even register for any of the benefits required by law. This is a largely ignored (and maligned by some) segment of the population. Not a small number, either.
Having lived in Mexico City for the better part of 20 years I would have to say that there is NO WAY that 60% of the population in Mexico City is middle class, and outside of big cities the segment of the population that earns even $10,000 a month is small. |
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Tretyakovskii
Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 462
Location: Cancun, Mexico
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I was originally thinking of Mexico but ended up in Asia partly because of the difference I noted between how the two big immigrant blocks in the SF Bay Area (Chinese and Mexican) felt about their ancestral homeland compatriots. |
Interesting choice of parameters but perhaps far too sophisticated to serve the purpose.
More to the point is how you would find living in Mexico, among Mexicans, as your experience as an expat would be guaranteed to be different, and to feel different from that of the "natives".
I've found it a plus that living as an expat I'm free to enjoy what I find appealing- and to largely ignore the rest. Not being bound by the conventions of the society in the same way the natives are makes this possible. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I've found it a plus that living as an expat I'm free to enjoy what I find appealing- and to largely ignore the rest. Not being bound by the conventions of the society in the same way the natives are makes this possible. |
What an eloquent way of putting it. Thank you for that.
The "look at me, I'm practically Mexican!" brigade would do well to learn from that, too. |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 720
Location: Chillinfernow, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
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| I've found it a plus that living as an expat I'm free to enjoy what I find appealing- and to largely ignore the rest. Not being bound by the conventions of the society in the same way the natives are makes this possible. |
What an eloquent way of putting it. Thank you for that.
The "look at me, I'm practically Mexican!" brigade would do well to learn from that, too. |
Desperately trying to find the both thumbs up emoticon...
DL |
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boomerexpat
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
Posts: 135
Location: Mexico
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:28 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Tretyakovskii"]
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More to the point is how you would find living in Mexico, among Mexicans, as your experience as an expat would be guaranteed to be different, and to feel different from that of the "natives".
I've found it a plus that living as an expat I'm free to enjoy what I find appealing- and to largely ignore the rest. Not being bound by the conventions of the society in the same way the natives are makes this possible. |
Very good points and it is why I'm leaning towards Mexico or somewhere else in Latin America now instead of Asia. |
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boomerexpat
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
Posts: 135
Location: Mexico
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| BadBeagleBad wrote: |
Having lived in Mexico City for the better part of 20 years I would have to say that there is NO WAY that 60% of the population in Mexico City is middle class, and outside of big cities the segment of the population that earns even $10,000 a month is small. |
Thanks for the reality check. |
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boomerexpat
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
Posts: 135
Location: Mexico
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:44 am Post subject: |
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I checked out their website and it stresses that they only have CELTA, ICELT and DELTA certs.
I went through International TEFL and they are an Institutional member of the The Academy of the College of Teachers - whatever that is. I liked the course overall and felt I learned quite a bit but I know in Asia that British companies are v. snooty about what degree you have and if it ain't one of theirs they don't care what you are like.
I guess I didn't get a CELTA, in part, because I got so sick of that nonsense in Silicon Valley. I was from Berkeley - ranked 2nd best school on the planet and 5th best MBA program in the US.
Stanford grads, who ran the venture capital and premier consulting biz in SF area, felt that if you didn't go to Stanford or Harvard you just didn't measure up. A Stanford grad would rather have another Stanford grad with no exp over a v. experienced, successful non-Stanford grad.
I was so sick of that I wanted to avoid it and go where my vast exp would be valued.
So is the IH website just marketing hype or do they only hire the "premier" cert types no matter what else the person has to offer? |
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Tretyakovskii
Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 462
Location: Cancun, Mexico
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I hear 'ya.
| Quote: |
| EFL jobs are maybe 700 to start which puts them slightly below the median. Seems like upper poverty, lower middle class. Even in Thailand the jobs I believe rank higher than that. |
I don't know, I was living as cheaply as I thought I could five years ago, and I couldn't get by in Bangkok on less than $800 USD/month- just for the necessities. You can do that here, even now. At the time, state universities were paying just about 18,000 Baht/month, as I recall, with the Baht at about 33/USD.
Shocking as it may seem to some who haven't experienced it to hear that $700/month is on offer for starting positions, those who have made the transition successfully know that adapting to a new way of life, in Mexico, changes the perspective: the 10,000 pesos people have spoken of can make life possible here: it couldn't in the United States.
The reasons people will come to Mexico in the coming years will be much what they have been throughout time- when it comes to migrations- people are seeking a life, or a better life, in general.
For some who are finding economic conditions abroad untenable, yet have energy and skills to offer, Mexico can represent a viable choice in the struggle to regain control of one's fortunes. |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 720
Location: Chillinfernow, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| wrote: |
| ...Shocking as it may seem to some who haven't experienced it to hear that $700/month is on offer for starting positions, those who have made the transition successfully know that adapting to a new way of life, in Mexico, changes the perspective: the 10,000 pesos people have spoken of can make life possible here... |
Not only possible, but comfortable and happy.
| wrote: |
The reasons people will come to Mexico in the coming years will be much what they have been throughout time- when it comes to migrations- people are seeking a life, or a better life, in general.
For some who are finding economic conditions abroad untenable, yet have energy and skills to offer, Mexico can represent a viable choice in the struggle to regain control of one's fortunes. |
Yet sadly, for the 43% plus of Mexican's living in poverty, viable choices in the struggle just to achieve a comfortable, healthy living remain elusive. 
DL |
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