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spiral78

Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject:

Quote:

True, but we're talking also about outside the classroom - in your time off, so to speak.

I'm not saying anyone needs to go round thinking that the locality has to conform to your values. But if you can never talk about those, doesn't that then mean you're going to have a pretty lonely time?

I don't have any answers, Sasha. I'm a pretty outspoken person and would hate to feel I was being muffled because people around me were religiously or politically intolerant, for example. That's probably why I've never lived in a religiously-dominated or repressive country, where expressing opposing views is likely to get you into trouble.

To the OP: certain (but not all) parts of Europe might be more what you are looking for - if you can legally work here, that is

The OP's American, so most of Europe is off the table. I was also thinking that someplace like the Netherlands would be a good choice, but unfortunately not an option for her.

I hear what you are saying, TIR, about loneliness. It did occur to me that many teachers, especially in their first year, don't really have social support systems outside work. This can be tough on a lot of levels.
But I still don't think it's generally wise to confide in work colleagues on personal issues; if things don't go well, the consequences can be far less pleasant than loneliness.

I think one practical option is to make friends/socialize among other expats (who for preference work in other schools than one's own). Joining the expat community is usually a popular first step in a new country anyway- it usually takes a bit longer to make real friends among the locals and other expats can be a good bridge. They occasionally even turn into real friends as well Shocked

This obviously isn't going to work in isolated areas, but for the many EFL teachers who work in cities, it's a good step.

Other expats are more likely to be non-judgemental (or at least less judgemental) about possibly sensitive personal information.

cmp45

Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:01 pm Post subject:

solidarnosc wrote:

bulgogiboy wrote:

solidarnosc wrote:

Sashadroogie wrote:

Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, Turkey is probably a good bet for her. But again, discretion is the key point.

Not sure how you managed to come by such an opinion!!!

That is by far the worst and possibly the most dangerous advice I have seen on this forum in quite a long time.

Seriously why would you give someone such advice!!! If not naive, that advice is border line evil!!!

In answer to the OP's question, as a lesbian, Turkey is best avoided like the plague.

I also worked in Turkey. My workplace was gay-friendly, and I knew at least one bi-sexual woman there. I also went to a bar in Ankara where women were unashamedly displaying 'more than friendly' affection for each other. I'd say it's a smiliar situation to the ME, and that if you are discreet you'll be just fine.

Of course in a nice safe community all is well, but what happens the minute you step out of that community?

Maybe you could tell me how many transvestites were slaughtered last month in Istanbul?
How many Gay men were beaten?

Lesbians are viewed in the most disgusting light in Turkey by Turkish people. Step outside the gay community in Turkey and take your chances.

Of course a lesbian woman is safe in a lesbian community, in a gay bar surround by Westerns, and a few open minded Turks, but what about 90% of the rest of time and people?

I am sorry but being gay in Turkey is not a good or safe thing.

This sort of tragedy occurs even in the most open of societies...which is unfortunate, but is also why people have stated one needs to be discreet perhaps your definition of 'discreet' is different? Is there really any place on earth 100% safe for gays and lesbians?

Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:21 pm Post subject:

solidarnosc wrote:

Sashadroogie wrote:

Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, Turkey is probably a good bet for her. But again, discretion is the key point.

I come by that opinion from living in Turkey for a couple of years. Plenty of gay and local colleagues and friends. Lots of in-clubs for the 'scene'. Absolutely no problems for anyone IF they exercised basic discretion. Go to some village in the east, and you'll face problems. But everybody would, regardless of who they are.

There's nothing evil nor naive about my recommendation, and I stand by it 100%. Not sure why you feel the need top demonise my contribution like that either. Care to explain?

And here are a few favourite Turkish pop stars who are clearly batting for the other team, yet much-loved by the locals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oupbh80nZ8E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOw0obywNf0

solidarnosc

Joined: 20 Apr 2012
Posts: 9

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:26 pm Post subject:

cmp45 wrote:

This sort of tragedy occurs even in the most open of societies...which is unfortunate, but is also why people have stated one needs to be discreet perhaps your definition of 'discreet' is different?

I have the understanding the OP is looking for somewhere she can work and live, and at the same time feel comfortable and as open as she possibly can be about her sexuality. That's my understanding of discreet in this case.

Unfortunately it is not only just about being discreet and I think a few people are missing the point on this thread. You can go somewhere, work and be discreet, but what happens the minute you let the cat out of the bag?

How are the vast majority of the host population going to view and treat you?

You can be discreet in every country. What happens the minute you are not discreet? Every country has its own different reaction and social background on this topic, but believe me Turkey is right at the bottom of this pile.

bulgogiboy

Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject:

solidarnosc wrote:

bulgogiboy wrote:

solidarnosc wrote:

Sashadroogie wrote:

Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, Turkey is probably a good bet for her. But again, discretion is the key point.

I never said it was safe, did I? I said, you need to be discreet. If you are discreet you'll be fine. A lack of open acceptance from society doesn't always equal a bad place to practice something. You can get executed in KSA for being gay, but the fact remains that, as long as you are sensible and discreet, it's one of the best places for a gay teacher.

Also, those transvestites are often responsible for a lot of violence themselves, believe it or not. They were well-known for openly selling themselves on the street, and mugging people in Ankara, before the police cracked down on them. I went into the wrong bar once and I can tell you those 'ladies' are no shrinking violets; they know how to cause trouble.

Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject:

Too bloody right.

bulgogiboy

Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:36 pm Post subject:

solidarnosc wrote:

cmp45 wrote:

This sort of tragedy occurs even in the most open of societies...which is unfortunate, but is also why people have stated one needs to be discreet perhaps your definition of 'discreet' is different?

If this is the case, and the OP won't acquiesce to a necessary level of discretion, then I would agree with you that Turkey probably isn't the best place for her to go. The same goes for the whole of the ME.

Having said that, I'm struggling to think of a country where a teacher, either gay or straight, shouldn't exercise discretion in his or her private life. I, as a heterosexual man, have gotten myself in trouble in the past, for not following this sensible precaution. Nobody wants to know about teacher's sex life, period! Laughing

Last edited by bulgogiboy on Fri May 25, 2012 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject:

I hear tell that there are plenty of places in the US that would be less than welcoming too. Why should anyone expect foreign climes to be different if basic common sense just will not be employed?

bulgogiboy

Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:44 pm Post subject:

Sashadroogie wrote:

I hear tell that there are plenty of places in the US that would be less than welcoming too. Why should anyone expect foreign climes to be different if basic common sense just will not be employed?

Qatar is about 100 times safer than Alabama, for the 'rainbow brigade'. No gay bashers here! Very Happy

solidarnosc

Joined: 20 Apr 2012
Posts: 9

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject:

Sashadroogie wrote:

You do realise there is a huge different in social acceptability between, a gay man, a transgender and lesbian in Turkey? One of those is missing from your youtube collection by the way.

I still don't see why you would recommend Turkey to a gay female.
There are 196 countries in this world and Turkey is one of the most unsafe for a gay female period!

I didn't demonise you. I quite openly gave you the chance to be naive about Turkey first.

Sashadroogie wrote:

'who are clearly batting for the other team'

You do realise that is quite largely considered and accepted as being a derogative euphemism?

cmp45

Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject:

here kitty, kitty, kitty....

Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject:

solidarnosc wrote:

Sashadroogie wrote:

'who are clearly batting for the other team'

You do realise that is quite largely considered and accepted as being a derogative euphemism?

Calling comments evil is not demonising them?

And that expression is not largely considered derogatory. Perhaps by some, maybe you. But not 'largely'. Not by a country mile. (Oh! Is that derogatory to farmers?)

My compatriot lesbian friends claim the complete opposite to you. They say they had/are having a great old time - period.

Guy Courchesne

Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject:

Quote:

My compatriot lesbians claim the complete opposite to you. They say the had/are having a great old time - period.

Turkey is considered fairly dangerous for women in general...are you saying it is somehow less dangerous if you are a lesbian woman?

Sashadroogie

Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:04 pm Post subject:

Turkey is not dangerous for women in general.

Guy Courchesne

Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject:

That's not the opinion of the admittedly few female friends that have spent time in Istanbul...but it is their unanimous opinion. I'll leave it to the experts though.

Quote:

I went into the wrong bar once and I can tell you those 'ladies' are no shrinking violets; they know how to cause trouble.

I did the same in Mexico City once long ago and those same 'ladies' saved me from corrupt cops raiding the bar. I guess it goes both ways. Wink

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