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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010 Posts: 3258
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| I don't use the term "backpacker teacher" very often (if ever), but when I hear it used it is obvious what the person is talking about. It most definitely does NOT mean a teacher who carries a backpack. Narrowly construed is the key here. It is a derogatory term and unfortunately apropos and all too common. |
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Lobster

Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 2040 Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Which begs the question: Why are you posting on a thread about a book you have dismissed without, and have no intention of, reading? Unless to start an argument of course. |
Because I have a problem with the silly assumptions made by writers who aren't on the ground and write a bunch of tripe about FTs here such as "Foreign Teachers are Idiots". Does that sound like a serious academic title or an assinine, sensationalist flavour-of-the-day treatment? I read a lot, and most of what I read is geared toward improving my teaching skills in a Chinese context. Do you seriously think a title like that is going to divert my attention from other, more valuable readings?
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| And I'd be interested in finding out about the "actual related experiences of most FTs in China". |
Great, why not come to Shanghai and do some work, and in your down time you can learn about some of the people who work here. Or just stay where you are and pretend to know what you're talking about.
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| This must be some very good research you've done, or have access to. |
Sorry, where did I mention that I'd done any academic research on this topic? I'm not writing a book or grad paper on the topic. I can only relate my experiences over the last 13 years in China and what other FTs have told me about their working experiences here.
This pandering to the entrenched belief by focussing on the lowest tier of FTs in China contributes little of value to the field but may provide a chuckle or two for those seeking to denigrate FTs. Are you going to read it? Pay full cover price?
Is it an entrenched belief? Comments such as
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| Imagine if they really did employ competent, qualified teachers. |
suggest that this belief is more deeply rooted than we may believe. To put it another way, I am competent and qualified, but the rest of you are hacks.
RED |
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RPMcMurphy
Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 90 Location: Australia
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Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Lobster"]
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1.Great, why not come to Shanghai and do some work, and in your down time you can learn about some of the people who work here.
2. Sorry, where did I mention that I'd done any academic research on this topic?
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1. Do I need to do this again? Three years in Shanghai was adequate. As much as I love Shanghai, and Guilin, and as much as I enjoyed working in China for five years all up, you can't buy a house in a Western country [well, maybe a sub-prime repossession in some dump] and retire on Chinese earnings. And your Chinese CV won't be much use in many other countries unless you've got some qualifications to back it up.
2. You said [p.2 of this thread] you had access to the experiences of most FTs in China. This implies some research, or a vast social network. How many are there, btw??
Anyway, this thread is about a book you don't intend to read about a topic you already know everything about, so I can't see why you're posting here. |
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chinadad
Joined: 29 Nov 2011 Posts: 291 Location: chengdu
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:59 am Post subject: |
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Truth of the matter is - even after 13 years on the job - you're basically employed at the same level as your "1 year contract and out of the country" teacher.
Because -
1. your contract is always up for renewal at the end of the year - just takes a minor dispute, change of managers, or a decision that they want a younger model - and you're out. The long-term uncertainty of this job - never knowing what will happen next year is always in backs of the FT mind - whether she be short-stay or super long-termer. Get the sack and you again land on square one.
2. your professional status never grows - you're always employed because you're white, never to be included in any real process of management - that's always undertaken by a set of Chinese superiors who often seem to regard the FT as a business rather than teaching tool. A professional dead end - that's geared to short term teachers. The minority of FT's who are here for multiple years - could find the aspect, of not being taken very seriously at the workplace, particularly tiring.
3. unless you have pensions and health care sorted out back home - on most Chinese FT wages you're never going get them sorted here. The prospect of being old in China is scarey - which also goes for bringing up children - who in their right mind would want their children to attend Chinese schools - how many FT's earn enough to send children to some sort of alternative education?????
China is a country where the normal FT only stays a year or 2 - hence the probable poor standards of teaching - something that's probably highlighted in the report. Somebody who taught here for 13 years would certainly not be representative of a typical FT - after all they could have other types of issues clouding their performance and careers. |
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RPMcMurphy
Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 90 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| chinadad wrote: |
China is a country where the normal FT only stays a year or 2 - hence the probable poor standards of teaching - something that's probably highlighted in the report. Somebody who taught here for 13 years would certainly not be representative of a typical FT - after all they could have other types of issues clouding their performance and careers. |
Many pertinent comments made by chinadad. There is no career structure or security and, whilst there are some qualified and many unqualified [in a Western sense] people out there doing a good, conscientious job, China is just an interesting detour which for most is a cul de sac, as it leads nowhere.
I can understand, as I'm one of them, how a late-career qualified teacher with financial security - both present and future - might play out the China experience for as long as it kept them happy. I've worked with some of these, and they make the best of colleagues, mostly because they maintain professional standards. |
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Lobster

Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 2040 Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: |
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I was a teacher in the west long before I came to China. I've been a teacher for over 25 years.
Perhaps one is in the situation described, worrying about contract renewal, money, management input, being taken seriously, pensions or other issues "clouding performance or career", but that's you, not me, and not others. It seems there is little to no hesitation about making assumptions about others' situations or projecting one's own experiences, fears and career situations onto others.
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| You said [p.2 of this thread] you had access to the experiences of most FTs in China. |
No I didn't, you just don't get it. Neither you, nor I nor the author of this book have a clue about what most FTs here are like beyond our personal experiences (and the author's "survey") Please stop making assumptions about a market that changes so quickly based on personal observations in the past. Things change, and here they change rapidly.
I never did get an answer my question. Do you plan to buy and read this book? I would guess the answer is no. Don't try to hypocritically silence me.
I talk about the book and the author's motivations and methods, and others launch into a diatribe about FTs work and how I need to justify my posts. I can understand that it's very difficult to deal with people who disagree with you, but unfortunately I do disagree with most of what is being said on this topic. Getting all twisted up and spewing disdain and doom isn't going to help.
Let me restate this.
There have been no adequate studies done to validly present a clear picture of the types of teachers in China; their qualifications, experience, motivations, duration of stay or abilities.
Agree or disagree?
A very small-group targeted study of a very large and diverse group, based upon the premise that they conform to a certain set of traits, will be wildly inaccurate.
Agree or disagree?
Most information about FTs in China is anecdotal or based on personal experience.
Agree or disagree?
The experiences of FTs in China are extremely broad and varied.
Agree or disagree?
It is now quite popular, among academic researcers, the general population and even FTs, to have a negative perception of FTs in China.
Agree or disagree?
This book is worthwhile in terms of adding to the general understanding of FTs in Shanghai and will lead to improvements and advancements in the field.
Agree or disagree?
The author, based upon previous publications and the target of the current book, is attempting to portray FTs as dead-end people in a dead-end career, and this represents the current entrenched view.
Agree or disagree?
Please try to stick to the topic and answer the questions instead of spinning off onto the "I don't know why you're posting here" tack. I've already answered that question. Read the answer. I don't ask you to justify the motivation for your postings, and you have absolutely no business asking me to justify mine.
RED |
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RPMcMurphy
Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 90 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
Oddly enough, it seems to run counter to the actual related experiences of most FTs in China.
RED |
You wrote this, so now wriggle out of it. Related to who? Most must be a very large number.
No, I won't buy the book. If you'd followed the thread, I wrote that I'll ask my university to buy it, then I'll read it.
I've been doing qualified, mainstream English teaching in the UK and Australia for several decades, but I'm not interested in being one of two bulls fighting for bragging rights.
Get off the thread as you're trolling currently. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003 Posts: 3198 Location: Beijing
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: |
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I'd be interested in thumbing through this book to see what the author asserts. With that being said, I wouldn't expend any energy in going out of my way to get a copy of this..."tome". If I were to come across it by chance, I would give it a few minutes of my time, but I wouldn't be interested in sitting down with it for an extended period of time, nor would I be overly interested in giving it too deep of a thought.
As was said above by another poster, I prefer to focus more serious and concerted efforts on readings that will help me improve my teaching and help me to better serve my students and fellow teachers, i.e., the ole' "How to Teach Academic Writing" sort of thang.
Just my knee jerk reaction to it and a bit of my two jiao.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
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chinadad
Joined: 29 Nov 2011 Posts: 291 Location: chengdu
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| As was said above by another poster, I prefer to focus more serious and concerted efforts on readings that will help me improve my teaching and help me to better serve my students and fellow teachers, i.e., the ole' "How to Teach Academic Writing" sort of thang |
I would have thought reading a constructive critique of FT teaching method could be a very useful tool to improving your own teaching method - amazing how some of the knee jerk reaction posts contained in this thread have come about through just reading the report title and abstract.
Last edited by chinadad on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010 Posts: 3258
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| could be a very useful tool to improving your own teaching method |
My thoughts exactly. Be interesting to see how other teachers deal with some of the stuff that is unique to China. |
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Lobster

Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 2040 Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| 'A Critical Ethnography of 'Westerners' Teaching English in China: Shanghaied in Shanghai' |
This doesn't sound like it has anything to do with teaching methodologies or even a critique thereof. It's an ethnography.
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| Get off the thread as you're trolling currently. |
We already have a forum moderator, and it's not you. You didn't respond to a single question; just belaboured a petty point you don't understand. So who's trolling now?
OP: Joined forum 22 August 2012
RPMcMurphy: Joined forum 22 August 2012
What a strange coincidence!
Lobster: Joined forum 20 June 2006
You think you have the right to tell me to stay off a thread? You must be joking or deluded or both. But I will anyway, because I'm not getting much in the way of a rational response here. Not surprising from one from the Cuckoo's Nest. Maybe the sensitivity comes from a stymied attempt at self promotion.
RED |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003 Posts: 3198 Location: Beijing
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
| This doesn't sound like it has anything to do with teaching methodologies or even a critique thereof. It's an ethnography. |
My thoughts exactly. I'll stick to my TESOL books from Cambridge University Press and Oxford University Press (among others), thank you very much.
Plus, I am not really going to take a book that costs $147.55 so seriously. Why the prohibitive cost? You're really telling me that this book is worth that much? Oh please.
Warm regards,
fat_chris |
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chinadad
Joined: 29 Nov 2011 Posts: 291 Location: chengdu
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Plus, I am not really going to take a book that costs $147.55 so seriously. Why the prohibitive cost? You're really telling me that this book is worth that much? Oh please |
Too right Chris - all good academic and literary critique places great emphasis on the price of the book. Einstein knew this - but he was dead clever - his theory of relativity was published at the knockdown price of $9.99 ensuring that the scientific community would immediately endorse it as a work of great merit!!!!!
Ethnography (from Greek ἔθνος ethnos = folk/people and γράφω grapho = to write) is a qualitative research design aimed at exploring cultural phenomena
Don't you think language and education, the very essence of your intercourse with the students you teach, are not cultural phenomena???????
Why do think think you have nothing to learn from this study 
Last edited by chinadad on Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:05 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Denim-Maniac
Joined: 31 Jan 2012 Posts: 1238
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ^^^^ agree. But I dont pay more than �15 for any book (and �15 is pushing it!). That price is waaaay higher than Id ever be willing to pay. |
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chinadad
Joined: 29 Nov 2011 Posts: 291 Location: chengdu
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ^^^^ agree. But I dont pay more than �15 for any book (and �15 is pushing it!). That price is waaaay higher than Id ever be willing to pay |
Normal folk rarely buy these books - they're intended as research literature with the main buyers being university libraries. As such they have limited publication - hence the price. Eventually a digital copy could be available - but it usually takes a connection to a university or paying a subscription to get this kind of report. |
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