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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| Middle East Beast wrote: |
I see no evidence that camraman ignored the warnings. His mistake was trusting the employer to be truthful. I don't expect every TEFLer to check Dave's Cafe before taking a job. I provide what information I can and hope that people find it, but I'm not going to blame them if they don't.
I want to encourage people to share these experiences on this forum. Coming down on them is not going to do that.
The problem lies with the liars in KSA and representing KSA, not with the person who is duped. If someone buys a defective product I'm not going to say to them, "Well, you should have known better." It's the manufacturer's fault, not the customer's.
MEB  |
Actually ...responsibility is on the customer to make an informed choice...buyer beware not all products are built to last...nor are all manufacturers reliable.
Research is the key to making an informed choice. Unfortunate situation...for sure, but just seems people never have any problem finding dave's AFTER they made their mistake. Live and learn...
Direct hire is the best way to go, avoid recruiters and contractors...even then do your research. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Middle East Beast wrote: |
| I see no evidence that camraman ignored the warnings. His mistake was trusting the employer to be truthful. I don't expect every TEFLer to check Dave's Cafe before taking a job. I provide what information I can and hope that people find it, but I'm not going to blame them if they don't. |
Which is why I said:
| Quote: |
| As to camraman, we don't know if he knew beforehand. |
Back in the day that Scot, JohnSlat, and I first went into the field, we had no way to check anything out before taking a job overseas. We just dived in and hoped for the best.
Nowadays with the easy availability of information on the net... and The Google, those of us who are educated enough to qualify for overseas teaching really have no excuse if we don't check things out first. I was in one bad job in the Gulf and I was aware of the previous years' problems because of information on the net. But I took the job anyway... and regretted it... left after completion of my first year... and blamed no one but myself.
VS |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| Nowadays with the easy availability of information on the net... and The Google, those of us who are educated enough to qualify for overseas teaching really have no excuse if we don't check things out first. |
I agree. Ironically, checking out employers is nothing new. Job applicants have always been advised to research potential employers as thoroughly as possible when applying for positions whether in their home country or abroad. Besides helping applicants to make informed career decisions, this info is especially beneficial when tailoring one's cover letter and resume/CV to the job and employer as well as preparing for interviews.
In reality, many job applicants for KSA positions see the money they can earn---the carrot on the stick, so to say---and that's enough "research" for them. Others check out the employer---good or bad---and decide either to apply or look elsewhere. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ... and blamed no one but myself. |
VS, how unimaginative of you! There must have been many possiblities for spreading the blame around.
I think perhaps it's a formal subject in US high schools these days; so many young adults seem to have such a high level of proficiency in blaming others for things, it seems likely that they've formally studied the skill and passed extensive tests with flying colours. |
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readytotravel
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Reading this forum prepared me for the worst. I am pleasantly surprised that it's not as bad as all that! |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ... and blamed no one but myself. |
VS, how unimaginative of you! There must have been many possiblities for spreading the blame around.
I think perhaps it's a formal subject in US high schools these days; so many young adults seem to have such a high level of proficiency in blaming others for things, it seems likely that they've formally studied the skill and passed extensive tests with flying colours. |
Have you ever found it justified to blame anyone else for anything? Is blame ever even shared or is it the exclusive purview of the victim?
So, if a Saudi employer dupes an employee, who's to blame?
Information found here is valuable, but what agenda promotes trying to make a person feel stupid and culpable for being duped? If it's to discourage others from posting here, then you'll probably be successful. Oh, we might lose some information that might be useful as well. We probably already have.
"You didn't check out our invaluable posts here, so you've only got yourself to blame"---NOT. Employees are not responsible for Saudi employers deceiving and lying to their employees.
And so what if someone checks out all the posts on a given employer, takes the job anyway, and then posts a negative report? It tells everyone that 1) things have not improved there or 2) things have gotten worse. What is the harm? Why the judging? Certainly no one on this board is superior to anyone else. I hope that others won't be deterred by personal attacks they experience or read on this forum.
What's tragic is that we have to do this research just to try to avoid being used and abused in Saudi Arabia (and other places) in this TEFL vocation.
If you want to pounce on these remarks, have fun.
MEB |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Have you ever found it justified to blame anyone else for anything? Is blame ever even shared or is it the exclusive purview of the victim?
So, if a Saudi employer dupes an employee, who's to blame?
"You didn't check out our invaluable posts here, so you've only got yourself to blame"---NOT. Employees are not responsible for Saudi employers deceiving and lying to their employees. |
Hmmm. In my part of the world, as in the ME, it's pretty easy to find reputable info on government websites, as well as on Dave's from people experienced in the region.
Here, the tune is the same, albeit with slightly different words:
Yes, you guys on Dave's told me that non-EU citizens can't get legal work permits for Italy (or France, or etc) and that was also what I read on the government websites.
But the cert course provider said I could find work, and I did - there were schools out there willing to hire me under the table without a work permit!! So THERE!
(Never mind that the course provider and the shady employer both made profit from my work, whereas the posters here and the government websites stood to make nothing and might therefore have been considered neutral and objective to a greater degree).
Ok, except the schools that hired me as an illegal worker didn't ever pay me and then I got busted at the airport on my way home after I had to get Dad to buy my flight ticket 'cause I'm totally broke and now I'm banned from the EU for the next ten years.
Yeah, but it's the course providers and the school's fault!! They told me what I wanted to hear, so of course I believed them. Boo hoo.
Last edited by spiral78 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Dear MEB,
"So, if a Saudi employer dupes an employee, who's to blame? "
That's easy - both, the duper and the dupee.
Regards,
John |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:34 pm Post subject: overestimate |
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We may be overestimating the intelligence and research ability of EFLers. I recollect going to take up a job in 1990 with a teacher who had been recruited to work in the same place.
"Plane is for Jeddah. I was told we might work in Riyadh,"says he.
"That is right."
"So if Riyadh is in Saudi Arabia, where is Jeddah ?"
I swear by the five wounds of God that I did not invent this exchange
Since then we have more than 20 years of dumbing down. |
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readytotravel
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:24 am Post subject: |
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"Certainly no one on this board is superior to anyone else".
I disagree. There are those with superior intelligence and common sense and there are those whose command of the English language is far superior to others. All teachers are not created equal. Nothing has brought this fact home to me more than teaching in Saudi. |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear MEB,
"So, if a Saudi employer dupes an employee, who's to blame? "
That's easy - both, the duper and the dupee.
Regards,
John |
...and the 'tongue in cheek' moral of this thread is "Don't be a dupee"! 
Seriously though...  yes, it's always smart to report unscrupulous outfits so that others can avoid them; unfortunately it doesn't seem to deter others from joining the ranks of the used and abused. Why is that?...hmmmn perhaps the answer is in readytotravel's above post. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Thinking of that Bell Curve worries me. |
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baa_baa
Joined: 04 Dec 2011
Posts: 265
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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I've paid 500 for my iqama now the hr is denying it and wants 1000 sr. At this point I don't know what to do...
Would I be allowed to leave without an iqama..? |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Iqama is 500 for a year and 1000 for two years (Hijra not Gregorian). Once you have been processed in you need an iqama before you can get an exit visa. For that you need an Iqama |
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